A hellish responsibility

Originally posted by dj2becker to divegeester
Why spend so much time worrying about what happens to those who are unsaved rather than spending all the time making sure you are saved?

Once again, how would someone "making sure" they were "saved" manifest itself on an internet message board?

Originally posted by divegeester

Then help me sonship, by speaking the truth; does my difference of opinion with you on eternal suffering, place me at some degree of risk of being tortured for eternity?

I would think that eventually you might see that this tactic is not very effective.
That is to place a disagreement about the Trinity, or something else in terms of a threat of damnation.

This appears to be a trick you use to get people you disagree with to seem fanatically sectarian. IE. " Push the matter to be about final eternal salvation. "

A. " I think we should sing the song at this speed."

B. "Well I think it is better at this speed."

A. " You're saying then that I'll go to hell if I believe that this is the better speed ?"

Originally posted by sonship

Then help me sonship, by speaking the truth; does my difference of opinion with you on eternal suffering, place me at some degree of risk of being tortured for eternity?

I would think that eventually you might see that this tactic is not very effective.
That is to place a disagreement about the Trinity, or something else in terms of a t ...[text shortened]... with to seem fanatically sectarian. IE. " Push the matter to be about final eternal salvation. "

Actually "this tactic" is extremely effective at showing how you lack the courage of you conviction to actually state the consequences of rejecting your man-made erroneous nonsense. This tactic is perfect for highlighting how your teachings and beliefs do not bear scrutiny.

Originally posted by divegeester
Actually "this tactic" is extremely effective at showing how you lack the courage of you conviction to actually state the consequences of rejecting your man-made erroneous nonsense. This tactic is perfect for highlighting how your teachings and beliefs do not bear scrutiny.

Extremely effective huh ?

Now let's see. If a Christian brother does not believe that Revelation 20:15 says what it does as I interpret it, WHAT do I think will happen to that Christian brother ?

I am suppose to LACK the COURAGE to express my thought about that.
Well, I don't think believing Rev. 20:15 is about non-existence rather than conscious suffering will do anything to take away the eternal redemption that that Christian brother has in Christ.

Sorry if I terribly disappointed you there.
And it didn't take a huge amount of "courage" for me to state what I think is pretty obvious to me.

I might think that such a believer will face some problems in interpretation.

Oh, MAYBE ... you are referring to my writing something about this:

"And if anyone takes away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and out of the holy city, which are written in this scroll." (Rev. 22:19)

Is there an "AHA !!" ?
Is there a "GOTCHA!" there Divegeester?

Well, no one asked me. But I don't think that this promise necessarily has to mean that a person loses eternal salvation.

I have expounded how God can take away a portion of our enjoyment of the birthright of salvation temporarily until we learn some lesson.

So, taking away portion of the tree of life I take, if applied to a believer, to mean some kind of limitation of his experience of divine life on a temporary basis. That is until he matures.

Is that what you meant by - "Ya ain't got the guts to admit that ya think a Christian will be lost forever if he doesn't agree with YOU on Revelation 20:15" ?

Here we come back to what I often come BACK to.

"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Rom. 10:9)

I often come back to those matters and that consequence, don't I ?

Originally posted by sonship
Extremely effective huh ?

Now let's see. If a Christian brother does not believe that [b]Revelation 20:15 says what it does as I interpret it, WHAT do I think will happen to that Christian brother ?

I am suppose to LACK the COURAGE to express my thought about that.
Well, I don't think believing Rev. 20:15 is about non-existence rat ...[text shortened]... Rom. 10:9) [/b] [/quote]

I often come back to those matters and that consequence, don't I ?[/b]

The book of Revelation was written specifically for the 7 churches. These churches all comprise Christian Saints. Some of these saints were good, some lukewarn and some evil.

Over 2 chapters was spent with warning these Christians about their good works and their righteousness. It appeared that they were going astray, and some were quite likely thinking that they would get eternal life even though their works were evil [like some Christians of today].

The Bible is clear of this fact pertaining to Christians that the Christian who accepts Christ and then reverts to a life of sin is a worse position than if he did not know of Christ in the first place. Therefore an atheist or non Christian is bettor off in the day of judgment than a sinful Christian.

If there is indeed a lake of fire with real eternal torment then it will be evil Christians who will be cast into that place, not non Christians who were given nothing .. no gifts, no Holy Spirit, no ability,l no Gods Spirit ,,, nothing. It is the Christians who are guilty and it is to these Christians that the warning of Revelation 20 applies... ie names not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire.

The above makes perfect sense as this is the process of being saved, and getting eternal life:
1. Faith & Acceptance of Christ
2. Being saved from a past life of sin and evil [Saved by Grace. not of works]
3. Names are written in the book of life
4 Christians promise to live righteously in Christ
5. Receiving of good gifts and special abilities from God
6. Awaiting the promise of eternal life.
7a. Judgment - Evil Christians names are blotted out from the book of life, and are cast into the lake of fire.
7b. Judgment - Righteous Christians enter the Kingdom of God.

Non Christians do not go through this process.
They are innocent bystanders in this whole scenario.
No God worth His salt will ever raise an innocent person from the dead, just to torment them.
Christians who even think this for a second are very sick people.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The evil ones are the ones that interpret the Bible in such a way as to arrive at this doctrine... their heart is evil. They subconsciously would like this torment to happen to all nonChristians. Christians here have suggested this already.

THIS I can believe. Of COURSE the whole hell thing is bollocks.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The book of Revelation was written specifically for the 7 churches. These churches all comprise Christian Saints. Some of these saints were good, some lukewarn and some evil.

Over 2 chapters was spent with warning these Christians about their good works and their righteousness. It appeared that they were going astray, and some were quite likely thinking t ...[text shortened]... Revelation 20 applies... ie names not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire.

Excuse me people. But I feel to reply to some of these errors.

The book of Revelation was written specifically for the 7 churches. These churches all comprise Christian Saints. Some of these saints were good, some lukewarn and some evil.

There is no reason to assume that he who has an ear, let him hear HAS to be restricted only to those in the seven churches.

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (2:7a)
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (2:11)
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." ( 2:17a)
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (2:29)
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (3:6)
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (3:13)
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (.3:22)

While I agree that Revelation was specifically sent as prophecy to the seven churches (Rev. 1:11), there seems no artificial restriction that its blessing of reading cannot be to anyone who has and EAR ... the hear what the Holy Spirit is speaking in the prophecy.

Before the instruction that the letter be sent to the seven churches (1:11) there is the promise that ALL who read the words of the prophecy may be blessed, if of course, their hearts are right towards God.

(Revelation `1:3 - "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things written in it, for the time is near."

Excuse me folks. I feel to deal with some of Rajk999's weak comments.

The book of Revelation was written specifically for the 7 churches. These churches all comprise Christian Saints. Some of these saints were good, some lukewarn and some evil.

There is no reason to dictate that the words of the prophecy cannot be a benefit to all who hear and keep the words. They may or may not be the addresses specifically in "the seven churches".

" I Jesus have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the bright morning star. (22:16)

I testify to EVERYONE WHO HEARS the words of the prophecy of this scroll ... " (v.18a)

It would be, I think, ludicrous, to assume that the warning of those who hear in verse 18 and 19 ONLY applies to those Christians in the seven churches in the address list of 1:11 yet DID NOT apply to anyone ELSE.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The book of Revelation was written specifically for the 7 churches. These churches all comprise Christian Saints. Some of these saints were good, some lukewarn and some evil.

Over 2 chapters was spent with warning these Christians about their good works and their righteousness. It appeared that they were going astray, and some were quite likely thinking t ...[text shortened]... Revelation 20 applies... ie names not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire.

Over 2 chapters was spent with warning these Christians about their good works and their righteousness. It appeared that they were going astray, and some were quite likely thinking that they would get eternal life even though their works were evil [like some Christians of today].

The Bible is clear of this fact pertaining to Christians that the Christian who accepts Christ and then reverts to a life of sin is a worse position than if he did not know of Christ in the first place. Therefore an atheist or non Christian is bettor off in the day of judgment than a sinful Christian.

While it is quite clear that there is an address list of seven churches and their respective Christian saints in Revelation 1:11, it would be ludicrous to think too much of the contents of the prophecy is not for the benefit of ANYONE ... in the world.

For example, the LAMB is mentioned in this book more than any other book in the Bible. "The Lamb" means Jesus Christ the REDEEMER, the One who is the propitiation and the Propitiator of all sinners, through His death.

So MANY times "the Lamb" is mentioned in Revelation. It would be ridiculous to think the entire hearing WORLD was not meant by God to benefit from last book of the whole Bible.

Here is the weakness in Rajk999's argument.

The Bible is clear of this fact pertaining to Christians that the Christian who accepts Christ and then reverts to a life of sin is a worse position than if he did not know of Christ in the first place. Therefore an atheist or non Christian is bettor off in the day of judgment than a sinful Christian.

Can this argument be made to prove that Revelation 20:15 has to only refer to Christians and not to any, let us say, Christ rejecting Atheist ?

Here is 20:15:

"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." .

When does this condemnation occur ?
It occur at the end of the one thousand year millennial kingdom. See Revelation 20:1 - 7. The words about that great white throne judgment pertain to -

"And when the thousand years are COMPLETED, Satan will be released from his prison." (20:7)

That is the prison in which he is kept for the duration of the thousand years (20:2)

Now, all judgment of Christians from the church age HAD to occur PRIOR to the thousand years. Why ? Because the millennial kingdom is a time of REWARD to those who overcame during the church age (for the new covenant saints and the old covenant saints too).

Right here:

" And the seventh angel trumpeted; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,

The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.

Christ begins to reign over the earth STARTING at the beginning of the thousand year kingdom ... AND ON THROUGH eternity AFTERWARDS as well.

"And the twenty-four elders who sit before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshipped God, Saying,

We thank You, Lord God the Almighty, He who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have reigned.

And the nations became angry, and Your wrath came, and the TIME CAME ... for the dead to be judged, and the time to give the REWARD to Your slaves the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth. " (Rev. 11:16-18)

ANY reigning of saints, ANY granting of saints REWARD, ANY assigning of them to be co-reigners over the earth with Christ has to be AFTER ... they have been judged before the judgment seat of Christ for the church.

The decision as to HOW they fare during the millennial kingdom has to be determined just before that kingdom commences.

Now there is one problem with this interpretation which I will address below. And that is:

"But what about verse 18 saying that it is the time for the dead to be judged? Isn't that the great white throne judgment of Revelation 20:11-15 ?"

I think that Rajk999 believes that because Revelation 11:18 says that "the TIME" for the saints to be rewarded, is also "the TIME" for the dead to be judged, that the casting of some people into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:15 at the great white throne should be this TIME.

However. there is a judgment of the DEAD associated to whether or not they are raised in the first resurrection before the millennial kingdom or the resurrection at the end.

"The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years." (Rev. 20:5,6)

So the very determination, the discrimination of God as to who is raised before in the first resurrection and who is left to be raised latter in the resurrection afterwards (at the end of the thousand years) is itself a JUDGMENT.

So -

" ... and the time came for the dead to be judged ..." (Rev. 11:18a)

commences for the [physically] dead from the beginning of the millennial kingdom.

I would include Jesus' words in John 5:28,29) to help.

"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice

And will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those how practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment."

"[T]he resurrection of life" is the resurrection of the saved believers which will take place before the millennium (Rev. 20:4,5; 1 Cor. 15:23, 52; 1 Thess 4:16).

"[T]he resurrection of judgment" is the resurrection of the unbelievers who have perished which will take place after the millennium Rev. 20:5.12).

We should understand that an hour generally encompasses
1.) Christ judging that some be raised at His coming to be physically alive during the millennium.
2.) Christ determining the some be LEFT physically dead for another thousand years until the millennium is completed.
3.) Christ judging at the great white throne those left to be raised at the end of the thousand year millennial kingdom.

And we should understand that Revelation 11:18's "the TIME for the dead to be judged" means.

1.) The dead saints to be resurrected and determined to their position during the millennial kingdom
2.) The dead [unbelievers] [EDITED] determined to be left dead until the time of the great white throne after the millennium.
3.) The time at the great white throne when THOSE dead are resurrected and judged during which -

" ... anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

Pushback - "But, but, but then who could the beast, the false prophet and some others be judged to be cast into an eternal fire prior to the time of the great white throne ? "

Does the fact in any way nullify the words of Revelation 11:18 ?
I think not upon close examination.

" And the nations became angry, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give the reward to Your slaves the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Your name, to destroy those who destroy the earth." (v.18)

Antichrist, the False Prophet, and at least some of their living followers will go alive into the eternal fire (Matt. 25:41,46; Rev. 14:9-11; 19:20)

"And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet, who in his presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image. These two were cast ALIVE ... into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone.
And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeds out of the mouth of Him who sits on teh horse, and all the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh." (Rev. 19:20,21)

.
Since it is also the time to destroy those who destroy the earth, the enemies LIVING at the time of the second coming of Christ and the commencement of the millennium are included in judgment also.

Is there a problem to what I have just explained?
There is one to me that I have not yet fully solved.

I have said here before that the Bible probably cannot be systematized 100%.

I still may have a problem with something about Rev. 20:6.
I'll see if someone else spots it.
I don't think I'll volunteer it yet.

Okay. Here's the not fully solved problem I have with my own belief.

1.) I believe that some defeated Christians who are saved eternally may be punished during the millennial kingdom.

2.) The degrees of punishment will probably vary along a wide spectrum of possible things the Lord Jesus may do to perfect, correct, and mature the defeated Christian.

3.) On one extreme end of this wide spectrum is the possibility that some could be "HURT" (not perish forever, but "hurt" temporarily) be the second death.

To Christians Jesus says in the letter to the church in Smyrna:

" He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall by no means be hurt of the second death." (Rev. 2:11)

The strong implication is that a DEFEATED Christian (yet saved forever) MIGHT ... be "hurt of the second death".

4.) But if that is the case how can all who are participating in the first resurrection (who have to be Christians) be those for whom the second death has not authority [over them] ?

GOTCHA!

"The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

Doesn't that imply that ALL Christians will be rewarded and that NO defeated Christians will be hurt of the second death ?

I think not. It would contradict too much else said in the New Testament.
So I have to propose a way of looking at it.
As of yet it is not real satisfactory to me as some other things are.