weeping and gnashing of teeth

Originally posted by sonship
Defeated yet justified Christians ARE mentioned in the following parable.

[b] " Therefore salt is good; but if even the salt becomes tasteless, with what will its saltiness be restored? It is fit neither for the land nor for the manure pile; they will throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear." (Luke 14:34,35)

1.) Th ...[text shortened]... ut they are disciplined with shame and being "thrown out" in relation to the millennial kingdom.

Your ability to produce nonsensical interpretations from what seems clear in the Bible is truly amazing. You deserve and award and I suspect you will be granted one. . the award for the most consistent false teacher.

There is a reason why the gospels record what Jesus says several times .. that is people like you who lack understanding may read it two or three times in different ways and hopefully you might learn. Here is Mathews's version: Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. (Matthew 5:13 KJV)

Good for NOTHING... but to be cast out Will Jesus say that about those who he has saved?

In the other two records [Mark and Luke] the worthless salt is still worth something - if it is used in manure in the dunghill, BUT salt that is worthless is cast out. Paul says the same thing several times .. Christian saints who continue a live of sin will not enter the Kingdom of God.

I suggest you start changing your tune, becuase the whole pile of you people : Witness Lee, Watchman whatever and you, are fit for the dunghill as well.

Originally posted by Rajk999

Your ability to produce nonsensical interpretations from what seems clear in the Bible is truly amazing. You deserve and award and I suspect you will be granted one. . the award for the most consistent false teacher.

You won't refute the so-called "nonsensical teaching" though.
If I wanted to find someone who gave a well reasoned pushback on what I wrote, I wouldn't go to you.

There is a reason why the gospels record what Jesus says several times .. that is people like you who lack understanding may read it two or three times in different ways and hopefully you might learn. Here is Mathews's version: Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. (Matthew 5:13 KJV)

That is a good verse to reference, And the sister passage in Luke 14:34,35 elaborates further and helps us to understand. Incidently what is said in a parable there is taught in plain teaching elsewhere in the New Testament.

You HAVE to admit three categories because you have
1.) Saved and Rewarded
2.) Saved and Not Rewarded [suffer loss]
3.) Unsaved

In First Corinthians 3 So what I have presented is by no means a fanciful embellishment of a parable. It is accompanying the parable with quite clear and plain words of apostolic instruction.

Good for NOTHING... but to be cast out Will Jesus say that about those who he has saved?

This "good for nothing" corresponds to expressions like "unprofitable servant". By that time of the manifestation of the kingdom for 1,000 years because the servant is not ready as he ought to have been, he is not fit to reign.

That is good for nothing and unprofitable.

No unbeliever is a servant of Christ.
And a servant is also a son.
And Hebrews 12 goes through a long description of the Father's perfecting and disciplining of ALL of His sons.

Such discipline will [also] [edited] be taking place over unprofitable servants who were good for nothing at the time when Christ establishes on earth His millennial kingdom.
They will be perfected under a different dispensation and made overcomers in the age of the new heaven and new earth - Revelation 21,22.

In the other two records [Mark and Luke] the worthless salt is still worth something - if it is used in manure in the dunghill, BUT salt that is worthless is cast out. Paul says the same thing several times .. Christian saints who continue a live of sin will not enter the Kingdom of God.

The saved Christians who lose the reward, are (in terms of the REWARD of the millennial kingdom) virtually worthless and not good for it.

The Christians were warned about this in First Corinthians, Ephesians, and in Galatians. We were warned in other places also.

Arminian eschatology usually take such warnings to mean the loss of eternal redemption.

I suggest you start changing your tune, because the whole pile of you people : Witness Lee, Watchman whatever and you, are fit for the dunghill as well.

Name one book by Watchman Nee or by Witness Lee (big or little pamphlet) which you have read from cover to cover. And if you have not - you have no case. You don't know what you're talking about, period.

More to the point, your case from the Bible doesn't pass close examination either.

Originally posted by sonship

Your ability to produce nonsensical interpretations from what seems clear in the Bible is truly amazing. You deserve and award and I suspect you will be granted one. . the award for the most consistent false teacher.

You won't refute the so-called "nonsensical teaching" though.
If I wanted to find someone who gave a well reasoned push ...[text shortened]... t, period.

More to the point, your case from the Bible doesn't pass close examination either.

Everybody will take responsibility for their beliefs and their actions.

Good Luck to you.

Originally posted by Rajk999

Everybody will take responsibility for their beliefs and their actions.

And Christ is responsible for His eternally saved eternally redeemed saints.
Did you ever read about how He is ever living to intercede for them to save them to the uttermost ? Hebrews 7:24,25.

Good Luck to you.

Thanks for the thought. But I don't depend on "luck". Do you ?

Witness Lee, Watchman whatever and you, are fit for the dunghill as well.

All you are doing is probably causing some readers, who otherwise would pay no mind to these names, to become curious as to why you are so upset to condemn them.

www.ministrybooks.org

I would suggest they take a look at the book Christ Verses Religion by Witness Lee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=28C6

Originally posted by Rajk999
I suggest you start changing your tune, becuase the whole pile of you people : Witness Lee, Watchman whatever and you, are fit for the dunghill as well.

I've no idea about Witness Lee as I've never heard of him before sonship's elevation of him, but Watchman Nee wrote some excellent Christian books.

Originally posted by divegeester
I've no idea about Witness Lee as I've never heard of him before sonship's elevation of him, but Watchman Nee wrote some excellent Christian books.

Sonship derives his doctrines from these 'excellent' Christian books. So something is not right with these books.

Originally posted by divegeester
I've no idea about Witness Lee as I've never heard of him before sonship's elevation of him, but Watchman Nee wrote some excellent Christian books.

I didn't have prior knowledge of either, but do find the prefixes witness and watchman a little creepy to be honest. (Genuinely so).

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I didn't have prior knowledge of either, but do find the prefixes witness and watchman a little creepy to be honest. (Genuinely so).

Creepy and dishonest is what I would call it. Some years ago when I heard these names I thought it weird. Witness and watchman are bible or religious expressions/names. Then it dawned on me that so is jaywill and sonship. Quite likely sohship has changed his real life name as well... maybe its Worthless Bee 😀

Originally posted by divegeester
I've no idea about Witness Lee as I've never heard of him before sonship's elevation of him, but Watchman Nee wrote some excellent Christian books.

I've no idea about Witness Lee as I've never heard of him before sonship's elevation of him, but Watchman Nee wrote some excellent Christian books.

One of the reasons you feel this way is because organized Christianity white washes the tombs of the prophets. When a man of God is alive they may oppose him. When he dies they may speak highly of him recommending only those messages which they like.

While Watchman Nee lived Western missionaries did NOT invite him ever to speak (hardly at all). And organized Christianity opposed the co-worker of Watchman Nee , brother Witness Lee. Now that Witness Lee has also gone to be with the Lord, the same process will likely slowly emerge.

Religion white washes the tombs of the prophets saying "Oh, if we had been in their day we would not have persecuted them."

Christianity speaks well of the books of Watchman Nee on individual spirituality. That they like. They oppose or ignore his messages on the local church.

Christianity also attempted to draw a wedge between the two workers which was completely artificial: "Oh, Watchmen Nee we like. He can help us to be spiritual. Witness Lee on the other hand was different. He broke away and started something new."

Many well meaning seeking Christians have succumbed to this propaganda. It is like attempting to divide the ministry of Elijah against Elisha, claiming that they did not serve the same living God.

That is OK though because even by really getting into Watchman Nee's messages you will get the same truths that Witness Lee just repeated and showed how we can get into them practically.

Originally posted by KellyJay

Kelly did a good service to collect these all together.

Matthew 8:12
while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

The Lord Jesus will reign on the earth from Jerusalem. Somehow outside of the realm of His glory will be the outer darkness.

The outer darkness is not the same as the lake of fire.
The former is a punishment for correction and perfecting.
The latter is not for perfecting but rather for the hopeless lost rebel.

Matthew 13:42
and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is probably the eternal punishment.
The outer darkness is also an unpleasant place the nature of which we cannot exactly ascertain.

But the eternal fire is taught as eternal punishment.
The outer darkness a discipline of not more than one thousand years.
The unprofitable servant may go to the outer darkness.

The false believer planted in the world by the enemy, the Devil, specifically to frustrate the Christians, will be collected into bundles and go to eternal perdition.

Matthew 13:50
and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is probably eternal perdition. It is not for any kind of remedial correcting. It is "retribution". Forever the rejecting one of Christ will know what God feels about his sin and his rejecting of God incarnate to die and rise for his salvation.

It is beyond terrible to forever be made to know what God thinks about your frozen state of unbelief in Him.

Matthew 22:13
Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

This is a servant of Christ who came to the wedding feast. He got in. But he came presumptuously unprepared.

Why I teach that this is a believer going to the outer darkness for a thousand years is because he DID come to the wedding feast. After arriving it was judged that he came ill prepared in subjective sanctification. He was speechless. He had no excuse.

Why would you come before the celebration of Christ's wedding not sanctified in your living by the work of the Holy Spirit? That would be presumptuous and foolish.

He is not lost for eternity. But temporarily he is cast into "outer darkness" during the millennial reign of Christ on this earth.

Matthew 24:51
and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I teach this as a believer to whom Christ will decide he should TASTE what it FEELS like to be lost. But this is temporary.

No unbeliever is a servant of Christ. He does not own Christ as his Master and does not pretend to be responsible TO Him.

An unprofitable servant of the Lord Jesus must be a saved person who in sanctification became unprofitable, because he neglected this further work of God's salvation.

In some cases I think that God will teach such a lesson. As if to say " You are saved eternally. But for the sake of My kingdom's need for your being sanctified, I will let you TASTE for awhile what it is to be punished like the lost. Go be in the same kind of situation they are in for a time."

Matthew 25:30
And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The "outer darkness" is a dispensational punishment for correction. It takes place during the millennial reign of a thousand years.

Catholics mistakenly thought of this as Purgatory. They may have been close. However, it is clear that this outer darkness is not during the church age. It is AFTER the second coming of Christ.

It is completely heretical that in Purgatory any kind of financial gifts may shorten the time of some Christian there. The Roman Catholic Church saw something of discipline to the saved. But they tried to make this Purgatory and reap financial benefits from it.

Again, the outer darkness is not something during the church age. it is assigned AFTER the Lord Jesus brings His servants before Him at His judgment seat for Christians. That has to be at the second coming and not in the age of the church.

Luke 13:27-29English Standard Version (ESV)
27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ 28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. 29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God.

The parallel passage in Matthew, I think, says that these standing outside and not invited in are also "sons of the kingdom". Since they are called "sons of the kingdom" I take this to mean those who are actually saved.

We know some will be saved and rewarded and some will be saved and suffer loss.
I would recommend that Luke 13:27-29 is the harsher end of those saved, suffering loss, and lose the reward of the millennial kingdom.

I would say this based on Matthew's parallel to the passage. They are "sons of the kingdom" .

Matthew 8:12

" But I say to you that many will come from the east and the west and will recline at table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens,

But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth."

Compare with [b]the sons of the kingdom in Matt. 13:38 as the "good seed".
Temporary punishment of "good seed" as "sons of the kingdom" would be consistent with some saved losing the reward yet being saved as through fire in First Corinthians.

Brother Witness Lee's footnote in the Recovery Version says of Matt. 8:12 :

The sons of the kingdom are the saved Jews, who are the good seed (13:38) but whose faith is not strong enough to enable them to enter in through the narrow gate and walk the constricted way (7;13-14). They will miss the feast in the manifestation of the kingdom (Luke 13:24-30)
...

The outer darkness is the darkness outside the bright glory in the manifestation of the kingdom of the heavens (16:28; 25:30). Being cast out into the outer darkness in the coming kingdom age differs from being cast into the lake of fire after the millennium and for eternity (Rev. 20:15)

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I didn't have prior knowledge of either, but do find the prefixes witness and watchman a little creepy to be honest. (Genuinely so).

Maybe it's a cultural thing; they are both Asian I believe.

Originally posted by sonship
One of the reasons you feel this way is because organized Christianity white washes the tombs of the prophets.

The reason I "feel" what way? I didn't mention anyone's feelings.

Originally posted by divegeester
The reason I "feel" what way? I didn't mention anyone's feelings.

Okay. Poor choice of words.