Rajk -Why did Jesus have to die on the cross?

Originally posted by dj2becker
Is that what you were taught in your theology degree? What did they say the reason was for Jesus dying if people were already able to earn their salvation through works?

"Whoever pursues righteousness and love finds life, prosperity and honor."

Ah, Proverbs 21:21

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
"Whoever pursues righteousness and love finds life, prosperity and honor."

Ah, Proverbs 21:21

Similar to what Jesus said.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Similar to what Jesus said.

Indeed.

I find the Proverbs use of 'whoever' all inclusive.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Indeed.

I find the Proverbs use of 'whoever' all inclusive.

Jesus used that word a lot as well. The doctrine of Christ is for all people and for all time. Christians who dont like what he preached [the faith only, once saved always saved types], have crookedly devised a doctrine called Dispensationalism in which Jesus and his doctrine cast aside. Their claim is that a new dispensation of Grace, in which no works are necessary is now applicable.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You really lack the ability to read and understand everything the Bible says. Here it is again :

Paul said:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV)

You stop with that and proclaim that you are saved ... thats the way of the lazy se ...[text shortened]... e by proclaiming faith alone.
Eternal life is for those who do good works and live righteously.

Nobody gets eternal life without Christ.

So how then does an atheist who does 'good works' please God and get eternal life if they lack faith?

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]Nobody gets eternal life without Christ.

So how then does an atheist who does 'good works' please God and get eternal life if they lack faith?[/b]

Romans 2:15

The same as when you last asked. (And the time before that).

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Romans 2:15

The same as when you last asked. (And the time before that).

Valid question since if those that do good works are the only ones that make it, why have
Jesus die? Good works can be done without the death of Jesus, there was the law, it
had all types of works built into it.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Romans 2:15

The same as when you last asked. (And the time before that).

Without faith it is impossible to please God, hence would you agree that when an atheist that lacks faith does 'good works' it does not please God?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Valid question since if those that do good works are the only ones that make it, why have
Jesus die? Good works can be done without the death of Jesus, there was the law, it
had all types of works built into it.

"For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:20)

What do you make of that Kelly?

Originally posted by dj2becker
Without faith it is impossible to please God, hence would you agree that when an atheist that lacks faith does 'good works' it does not please God?

As above.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
As above.

"Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another."

Everyone knows the laws of God even an atheist, sure, so what's your point? Where exactly does it say that atheists, who lack faith, can be saved?

Originally posted by dj2becker
"Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another."

Everyone knows the laws of God even an atheist, sure, so what's your point? Where exactly does it say that atheists, who lack faith, can be saved?

I have explained that biblical passage to you before. I can't be held accountable for your poor memory.

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]Nobody gets eternal life without Christ.

So how then does an atheist who does 'good works' please God and get eternal life if they lack faith?[/b]

How do you know an atheist lacks faith?
You dont know that.
The same way you dont know that a Christian has faith.
You dont know that.

What you DO know is:
- a Christian SAYS he has faith
- an atheist SAYS he has no faith.

The proof that someone has faith, is good works and righteous living.

I know these things are hard for you to udnerstand

Rather than condemn good works, you would do well to understand and appreciate what James says here:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2:14-20 KJV)

Key points made:
- Can faith save a man if he has no works? No
- Faith without works is dead [stated twice]
- Even the devils believe that there is a God. Believing that God exists is not a virtue and by itself is worthless. So Christians who simply believe in the existence of God and do no good works are no better off that devils who do the same.
- This passage :
Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
can be restated thus :
A Christian hast faith, and the Atheist have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

What James says here, has been said by Jesus and all the Apostles. Its nothing new. What happens is that Christians tend to ignore the teaching of all the Apostles about good works and righteousness.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
"For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:20)

What do you make of that Kelly?

If Jesus is not your righteousness you will not enter.