Intelligent? Design

Originally posted by sonhouse
What it means to me is these are words written by men with no help from a god, but instead, just another religion growing a congregation to have a power center which leads to good things happening for the leaders, like the best of everything, whatever is available at the time of the start of these religions, in that case, maybe the best camels, the best ten ...[text shortened]... us "religion' of Scientology. Worked wonders for them, it's a multi billion dollar business now.

sonhouse
Are you sure NASA told us the truth ?

Three hours plus of substantial suspicious problems with Lunar Landing photos and other anomalies.

What Happened on the Moon?

YouTube&t=1248s

Of course you could just dismiss skeptics as flat earth nuts all.
Or just bury the head in the sand and retort "Spam!".

Originally posted by sonship
sonhouse
Are you sure NASA told us the truth ?

Three hours plus of substantial suspicious problems with Lunar Landing photos and other anomalies.

[b]What Happened on the Moon?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug0mE3Rkx-k&t=1248s

Of course you could just dismiss skeptics as flat earth nuts all.
Or just bury the head in the sand and retort "Spam!".[/b]

Or, you could just accept the FACT 12 men walked on the moon and they were not Russian or Chinese but American. I suppose you would be saying they were fooling ME when I was working Apollo Tracking and Timing. Some boogyman upstairs in a secret room pushing buttons as I was given the task of finding and locking RF receiver on a probe orbiting Mars, they were watching me with my little student radio telescope barely 12 feet across and when I hit the seek lock button and lo and behold, the lock light lit up, that was just a hidden dude upstairs watching all the students and pushing buttons just to dupe yet another graduating Apollo technician class.

The problem with you is you were never even within a hundred miles of any NASA activity and you look at it from the outside and since you are a known believer, you are easily duped just as in your religious beliefs, easily duped. So it's no wonder you are duped by these assswipes who should IMHO be tried for treason, where in fact what they are after is money, convincing enough other easily duped individuals of their vast conspiracy.

For instance all the crap about faked this and faked that and using computers to simulate them walking around on the moon and such. Since you were not there and I was, I can tell you as a witness, the computer technology back then was hard put to even have ANYTHING on a computer screen or use of the mouse or anything we take for granted today. I saw with my own eyes the very first single board computer, called the Nova, huge PC board by today's standards, about 2 feet by 1.5 feet in size covered with TTL logic. Of course you would not know what TTL is but gargle it, you can maybe learn something. A computer on a PC board using only TTL in chips about the size of postage stamps and near completely covering that huge circuit board and the power was not even close to the venerated Commodore 64. You could simulate maybe a rotating sphere or something extremely simple but screens? Mouse? Hard drive? Hard drives for instance, in that era were the size of a washing machine and good for maybe 10 megabytes max. And screens? Right. It fed a telex machine, a mechanical typewriter. And a slow one at that. And you think all that simple comp tech could help simulate a vast conspiracy. What a load of utter crap.

And in that era people who were never within a hundred miles of places like Goddard Space Flight Center like I was, deep inside, in actual point of fact in my case, they just cherry pick photo's that seem to corroborate their treasonous fantasies. For instance one 'fake' photo shows a supposed moon rock faked in a movie set with a hair on it. But in a matter of proven fact, that hair came about because the photo was a third generation image, an image of an image of an image but the treasonous assswipes never pointed THAT out did they?

http://www.moonlandinghoax.org/34.html

On that site you will find a list in the left hand side, go to the one labeled 'lasers'. It is a Mythbusters episode about the laser retroreflector left on the moon by the guys from Apollo 15.

Now think about that. There is a retro reflector on the moon they can now and in fact then also, get a distance measure of the moon accurate to within a centimeter. NOTHING even close to that existed before Apollo 15.

That retro reflector had to be accurately placed on the moon where the reflector surface was aimed at Earth.

Now think about the computer tech of the time. There was no way a computer driven robot could have ever placed that reflector on the moon in such a way as to be accurately aimed at Earth. That was UTTERLY impossible with the tech of the day. The computer in Apollo landing was something like the power of a commodore 64 and even that got messed up by the landing radar pulses overwhelming the comp and they had to land in manual mode. So there is this retro reflector up there completely unable to have been placed there by anything or anyone but MEN.

In another treasonous case, they look at the American flag when it was put up and they claim it was shaking in the wind inside the back lot somewhere in an aircraft hanger or some such rot. What they claimed to be the flag flapping in an alleged wind was in fact the flipping back and forth of the inertia of the pole itself when first erected, so it would take a few cycles of flexing when they let go of the pole and naturally the flag would wiggle around for a few flexing cycles, but hey, the treasonous assswipes turn that into an entire fake set inside a frigging aircraft hanger back lot movie studio BS.

But of course that means nothing to you either since anything they say MUST be solid truth, just like your religion.

But of course none of what I say here will make the slightest difference in your opinion of the greatest technical achievement of the 20th century will it.

Just like trying to convince you your religion is 100 % man made with no god needed for the creative writers making up their particular fantasy.

The NASA fake moon landing thing is in the exact same part of your brain so you will be forever unable to shake that treasonous crap out of your psyche.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Or, you could just accept the FACT 12 men walked on the moon and they were not Russian or Chinese but American. I suppose you would be saying they were fooling ME when I was working Apollo Tracking and Timing. Some boogyman upstairs in a secret room pushing buttons as I was given the task of finding and locking RF receiver on a probe orbiting Mars, they wer ...[text shortened]... rt of your brain so you will be forever unable to shake that treasonous crap out of your psyche.

Must you always bring any disagreement back to religion? Seriously, is it all religion to you
with everyone, all the time?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Must you always bring any disagreement back to religion? Seriously, is it all religion to you
with everyone, all the time?

So you didn't want to go to the sites I listed, just to make the comment I brought up religion? It seems to me the reluctance to accept what we did, which was go to the moon, is somehow tied to the idea that it is impossible to accept because that would say mankind is smarter than the religious set gives them credit for and now they have to start thinking we can do things which before they only could attribute to a god. That is the connection to religion I was talking about.

If you are a moon landing doubter, please go to the sites listed. Like the retroreflector put on the moon by humans, it was flat impossible for the technology of the day to have been able to put a robot on the moon that could go to that spot and accurately position it to aim back at Earth so a laser beam could figure out the exact distance to the moon within centimeters. There was absolutely no way for ANYONE on Earth, all the scientists and technologists on the planet could have ever done that in 1970. The technology just wasn't there to accurately measure the distance to the moon within a couple inches, but after the placement of the retroreflector, it was a whole new ball game in determining the exact distance to the moon, thousands of times more accurate than anything gone before.

They could hit the moon with lasers back then for sure but the surface is not refletive enough to get any kind of coherent return till the time they put the retroreflector on the moon. I can't tell you enough how crude robotics was in 1970.

I worked on an analog computer at that time just before I qualified for Apollo and that was so hard to program it took a week of soldering wires point to point on a patch panel with 768 connections to solder to. That allowed ONE simulation of a satellite spinning. No mouse, no screen, no hard drives. Robots at that time were about the level of Robbie the Robot, the only way they could do that was with a man inside. A real robot? Forget it. ESPECIALLY on the moon, driving around in some kind of car that drove itself? Or even was controlled on the ground, not possible with the tech of 1970.

But of course the true moon hoaxter believers won't believe that either.

Originally posted by sonhouse
So you didn't want to go to the sites I listed, just to make the comment I brought up religion? It seems to me the reluctance to accept what we did, which was go to the moon, is somehow tied to the idea that it is impossible to accept because that would say mankind is smarter than the religious set gives them credit for and now they have to start thinking w ...[text shortened]... h the tech of 1970.

But of course the true moon hoaxter believers won't believe that either.

I'm not a doubter about the moon. What we do in real time is simply amazing. My doubts go to conclusions drawn, not so much what we accomplish.

Originally posted by sonhouse



For instance all the crap about faked this and faked that and using computers to simulate them walking around on the moon and such. Since you were not there and I was, I can tell you as a witness, the computer technology back then was hard put to even have ANYTHING on a computer screen or use of the mouse or anything we take for granted today. I saw wit ...[text shortened]... rt of your brain so you will be forever unable to shake that treasonous crap out of your psyche.[/b]

I looked only at the last insulting sentence of your diatribe.
Maybe when I am in the mood to look at the rest I will latter.

But there are varied levels of skepticism about the Moon Landings.
Some say it never happened.
Some say it may have but acknowledge a lot of fake footage is going on.

I personally have no dog in the dispute. i just would finally like to know the truth.
I am not rooting for no moon landing. I am not happy if it never took place.
And if it DID then I think that is terrific for scientists. Maybe not for the tax payers and their grandchildren. But it would be a great science achievement.

I do not WISH that it never happened.
I just would like to know the truth.
And too much of the footage runs like a grade B 60s Sci Fi movie.

I don't think you can insult your way into convincing people of the authenticity of NASA's film footage.

i am not purposely in favor of spreading anything other than what the real truth is.
And if Apollo astronauts walked around on the moon and not on a staged set on earth, that is great for science.

Or, you could just accept the FACT 12 men walked on the moon and they were not Russian or Chinese but American.
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I don't care about the ethnic aspect of it that much.

I suppose you would be saying they were fooling ME when I was working Apollo Tracking and Timing.
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It is possible that not that many people were in the know IF fakery was involved.

Some boogyman upstairs in a secret room pushing buttons as I was given the task of finding and locking RF receiver on a probe orbiting Mars, they were watching me with my little student radio telescope barely 12 feet across and when I hit the seek lock button and lo and behold, the lock light lit up, that was just a hidden dude upstairs watching all the students and pushing buttons just to dupe yet another graduating Apollo technician class.
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Some people are suspicious of the footage of moon walks.
I am not trying to purposely insult significant work done at NASA.

You're having done significant tasks in your professional career at NASA doesn't do all that is needed to remove the feeling of some film watchers that we're being shown a studio production and being told what to believe.

The problem with you is you were never even within a hundred miles of any NASA activity and you look at it from the outside and since you are a known believer, you are easily duped just as in your religious beliefs, easily duped.
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I worked for the Army as a General Electric "System Integrator Contractor" in the 70s.
I was a Fortran programmer maintaining Life Cycle Cost Analysis program for certain battlefield surveillance systems.

No, I never worked for NASA. I have a friend in her 70s who did work for NASA. She is surprised also at my questions.

One thing I can vouch for is the cost overruns that can occur for government projects.
I can understand something about missing deadlines which involve large amounts of funding.

For this reason, not being ABLE to reach the moon on time with enormous financial commitments reaching sky high with no end in sight, does make sense to me as an incentive to appear to have made a success. JFK did tell the country "We choose to go to the moon ...." . But what we "choose" and what we are actually able to pull off on time within budget may not be the same thing - O eternally optimistic Americans.

It makes sense to me that an elaborate Plan B was in the wings - just in case what we "choose" to do we couldn't do.

So it's no wonder you are duped by these assswipes who should IMHO be tried for treason, where in fact what they are after is money, convincing enough other easily duped individuals of their vast conspiracy.
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Some people are after hits on their websites and the money.
Some people just want to know the truth.

Finding your most aggregious examples and parading them out like below, doesn't help your case of authenticity that much. It just drowns out the more significant documentaries with frantic So it's no wonder you are duped by these assswipes who should IMHO be tried for treason, where in fact what they are after is money, convincing enough other easily duped individuals of their vast conspiracy prejudice and "guilt by association".

I am not concerned with latter day computer graphics.
I am not concerned with doctored photos since the invention of Photoshop.
The OLD footage that I SAW in my living room in July of 1969 I now wonder about.

And the older footage of the other activities gives rise to some questions.

If people are faking hoax material that is worst or AS BAD as any staged moon walks.
They don't HELP their case by putting out garbage.
And you don't do that much to help yours by touting the worst examples.

For example, dismissing me as a flat earther won't convince me that something fishy is not being seen in some of these scenes.

What did I see? That is the question,
I saw a big rocket go up.
I saw some men walking up to it and getting in it before it went up.
I saw some things about being halfway to the moon, which some decades latter seem odd.
I saw some film of suited individuals stepping off a "Lunar Lander" onto the surface of a desolate desert like place.

I saw that. I can see it again any time I want to.
What I SAW and what I KNOW actually happened may not be the same.

If no cables are attached to the men causing them to look like they'er in 1/6th earth gravity, and rocks are authentically in the backround not being used for different scenes, and the dust of the moon buggy is actually moon dust behaving as it would in 1/6th earth gravity, and the shadows of things really do make sense, then I am happy to say - " Well it really did happen. Great for the US and science."

But if it did not and a generation of two of people have been indoctrinated to believe something happened which did not, then I say to my government - "Come on. When is it going to be SAFE for you all to tell us the truth? I mean ALL of us including some NASA former employees who were led along too."

But in a matter of proven fact, that hair came about because the photo was a third generation image, an image of an image of an image but the treasonous ...
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I am examining pros and cons.
And charges of treason sound a bit fanatical to me.

Originally posted by sonship
I looked only at the last insulting sentence of your diatribe.
Maybe when I am in the mood to look at the rest I will latter.

But there are varied levels of skepticism about the Moon Landings.
Some say it never happened.
Some say it may have but acknowledge a lot of fake footage is going on.

I personally have no dog in the dispute. i just would fin ...[text shortened]... ---------

I am examining pros and cons.
And charges of treason sound a bit fanatical to me.

Well, do that, look at the pro's and con's and you will find the deniers SHOULD be cons, in jail. They didn't write those books out of a conviction the moon landings were fraudulant, they did it to make money and nothing more. And of course they convinced a lot of people too. I gather you didn't read the part about my work with ancient computers of the day, unable to make the slightest kind of video, they didn't have screens at all, they fed a teletype machine and the programs came on thousands of punched cards.

You say you programmed fortran in the 70's. Then you know full well the pathetic state of computer tech in that era.

One thing none of the deniers can prove is the retroreflector put on the moon by Apollo astronauts, a job that would have been impossible for any kind of robot on the moon, it could ONLY have been done by men. You should think about that one. Before that mission, Apollo 15, nobody on Earth could measure the exact distance to the moon by ANY technology before the retroreflector was put there.

After the retroreflectors, they could measure the distance to the moon within inches.

And now show the moon receding from Earth at about a couple inches a year.

There was no way of showing that kind of accuracy before the retroreflectors.

You say you programmed Fortan and you should know full well the impossiblilty for any kind of vehicle remotely or not running around on the moon. The vehicles that were there were run by humans.

Unlike you and literally billions of other folk, I held a moon rock in my hand, handed to me by a geological tech who happened to live next door and we found out we worked on Apollo, a real coincidence but that is what happened, he invited me to his shop and that included a fort knox level vault and ushered me inside. There were all the moon rocks collected and he handed me one and I can tell you, it looked very alien, never saw a rock like that anywhere else on Earth and I have been to a lot of rock hound stores showing thousands of rocks and mineral samples and none of them were even close to that precious rock I held in my hands.

You say you don't want to believe it was fake but you clearly are willing to be sold the fakery story and I don't think you have even looked at the debunk sites showing every single line of evidence the deniers produced, like the photo with the 'hair' on it which proved to be a copy of a copy of a copy. But apparently none of that makes the slightest bit of difference, does it? You claim to not be a denier but you seem to be wearing their shoes.

Just exactly what evidence do you want to see that shows these charlatans are just making up lies? From what I read here, there IS no evidence you would believe, retro reflector or not.

Even if they had a remote controlled vehicle controlled from the ground, there would be a 3 second delay between seeing a problem, like a cliff or whatnot and being able to correct for it.

Even now that is impossible. That is why they imbued the rovers with AI so it can just be given a set of instructions over the data link and it does the job with no help from Earth. On Mars it is even worse, like about a 15 minute delay between seeing a problem and being able to correct it, it would have to travel about an inch a minute to keep under any kind of control. Not quite that bad on the moon but as a former Fortran programmer you have to know the difficulty involved in having any kind of link a quarter million miles away.

My boss Horst Shlingloff, an engineer, and I worked for months around 1970 getting just a cable driven link between a digital computer and an analog computer, where the digital did the settings on the analog machine. After 6 solid months of work, we finally got a link going. The data rate, and this by coax cables: 50,000 bits per second.

Imagine trying anything like that on the moon with that kind of tech.

He squeezed the hell out of existing coax connections to get even that much data, but ATT we only needed a few kilobits per second to set up the analong machine.

Now THINK about that. Just how would you, who have been there, expect any kind of data link even that limited at that time, 1970 or so, to go to the moon to some kind of rover to control it to put down the retro reflector?

You HAVE to know that was flat ass impossible in 1970 or 1980 for that matter.

The retro reflector HAD to have been placed there by humans. That is the bottom line. And of course you will not believe that I expect. I'm just asking you to put yourself back in 1970 and think what you had to work with and how anything like that could have been done.

My job was Apollo tracking and timing. Timing from 3 atomic clocks made by Hewlett Packard, cesium beam, Rubidium beam and a third on an advance quarz crystal clock in case the other two failed, although they never did, anywhere on Earth they were placed.

The tracking part was a VERY complex digital code generator that was sent to Apollo and had onboard a small transducer that send back the code to Earth and by comparing the outgoing to incoming data were able to say how far away Apollo was at any given time, accurate within about 50 feet and they could have gone to 6 inches accuracy if they had wanted to but it was not needed.

That was some sophisticated analog circuitry generating that special code I can tell you!

They used an acoustic transducer on a spiral shaped coil of wire where there were 2 ^N-1 versions, 2^3-1, 2^4-1, 2^5 -1 which was fed back to the acoustic couplers since there was no way to record and play back that kind of tech at the data rates they needed, so the wire recirculated those codes, several of them needed to recirculate all that code and so forth and all those codes mixed together to make the final code sent out to Apollo, which returned that code and by comparing outgoing to incoming code, they basically had a ruler in space.

That was real equipment, I know, I had to troubleshoot it in a classroom exercise and I also had to draw out the block diagram which was very frigging complex indeed and I got 100% on THAT one.

The amount of physical equipment was about 4 X4 X4 feet in size and must have massed a ton or more.

I got a feeling of anti-deja vu, when I went to Goldstone Space Tracking center where I was offered a job there, and saw the new floor tiles put down after all the Apollo equipment was removed after Nixon got through with us.

It was disheartening I can tell you, to see the spot where I knew that equipment had been at Goldstone and a half dozen or more other locations around the world.

You should seek out the movie "Dish' which is the story of the radio telescope in Austalia that actually picked up the moon landing 'one step for man' and rebroadcasted to the world. They came within 15 minutes of not getting the scope to work because of very high winds that only settled down a few minutes before that historic broadcast from the moon.

Anyway, it just riles me to think these traitors are allowed to keep this up after 40 odd years. I can't wait till another moon lander goes to those sites and squashes the whole sordid affair. Hubble is just not good enough to see footprints and never will be. It will take a new generation, probably 10 more years before the truth is revealed.

And I hope you have egg on your face when that happens.

I'll preface this post with a statement that I believe fully that we went to the moon, and I find it morally repugnant that there are Americans who feel that we didn't. The greatest achievement ever for mankind at that time, and there are actually Americans running around claiming that no, it was impossible even for America to do it. That's pathetic.

That being said, there is a pretty good film I saw some years back about the first trip to Mars that had to be scrubbed and faked on a sound stage because it was found that the corporation that made the space suits skimped on materials and it was found that the suits would fail long before the mission was over, resulting in the deaths of all the astronauts on the mission. So instead of going through with it and having a public relations disaster, they decided to fake the entire mission.

It had Elliott Gould, James Brolin, Hal Holbrook, O.J. Simpson and Telly Savalas. It was pretty good for a late 70s thriller, but I forgot the name of it. I do remember that what finally tipped someone off was the telemetry. You just cannot fake bad telemetry, so I think maybe sonhouse would get a kick out of the film.

Originally posted by 667joe
Clearly anyone who believes in intelligent design has never suffered from prostate problems!

Lol. Tell me about that prostate stuff. Terrible for sure. But you know the reason we all suffer from health issues is not the fault of God, it is our own faults or to be precise it was Adam that condemned us to this. If Adam had not sinned it is very possible he would still be alive today and we would all be the healthy humans that God had planned for us all.

Originally posted by galveston75
Lol. Tell me about that prostate stuff. Terrible for sure. But you know the reason we all suffer from health issues is not the fault of God, it is our own faults or to be precise it was Adam that condemned us to this. If Adam had not sinned it is very possible he would still be alive today and we would all be the healthy humans that God had planned for us all.

What a piece of horse puckey. That Adam and Eve myth has been played long enough.

There WAS no Adam and Eve and we find fossils of several different families of humans dating back a million or more years, Neandertal, Denosovian and so forth. Give it up. You can't keep telling those stories like they were literally true when in fact they were allegory. This literalism crap didn't even start till the 1800's. Back then, people knew the difference between fact and fiction. They don't anymore. Just look at the way Trump was elected, it proves people are not as smart as they think they are.

Originally posted by sonhouse
What a piece of horse puckey. That Adam and Eve myth has been played long enough.

There WAS no Adam and Eve and we find fossils of several different families of humans dating back a million or more years, Neandertal, Denosovian and so forth. Give it up. You can't keep telling those stories like they were literally true when in fact they were allegory. Th ...[text shortened]... ust look at the way Trump was elected, it proves people are not as smart as they think they are.

Are you Kidding me? You rejecting something isn't debunking it!

Originally posted by KellyJay
Are you Kidding me? You rejecting something isn't debunking it!

The content of his post does.

The notion mankind descended from one individual and that our current woes are down to the sins of that one individual is not a notion that should reside in anyone's head.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I'll preface this post with a statement that I believe fully that we went to the moon, and I find it morally repugnant that there are Americans who feel that we didn't. The greatest achievement ever for mankind at that time, and there are actually Americans running around claiming that no, it was impossible even for America to do it. That's pathetic.

T ...[text shortened]... You just cannot fake bad telemetry, so I think maybe sonhouse would get a kick out of the film.

Capricorn One. Was ok for the day.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
The content of his post does.

The notion mankind descended from one individual and that our current woes are down to the sins of that one individual is not a notion that should reside in anyone's head.

And a common ancestor does?

Originally posted by sonhouse
Capricorn One. Was ok for the day.

That's it!

So what about it, was what they depicted about such a mission ( I mean if it were real ) the way Apollo was?