@sonship: The trinity doctrine and salvation

Originally posted by leunammi
re you telling me that the Septuagint is not a translation of the OT?

Not the entire old testament, just Genesis, Exodus, leviticus, numbers and deuteronomy.


Oops that's torah

Septuigent includes the apocrypha

Originally posted by chaney3
Who said Dive knows anything?

Maybe God was saying...."there is only one God"......

Because there is only one God.

Jesus is not God.

" Thomas said to Him, My Lord and my God!

Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." (John 20:28,29)

Blessed is Thomas and those who have not seen like Thomas, who have believed WHAT?.

The "WHAT?" is that Jesus is our Lord and our God.
Our Lord and our God - Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by sonship

[b] " Thomas said to Him, My Lord and my God!

Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." (John 20:28,29)

Blessed is Thomas and those who have not seen like Thomas, who have believed WHAT?.

The "WHAT?" is that Jesus is our Lord and our God.
Our Lord and our God - Jesus Christ.[/b]

It's really not that difficult to understand, is it?

There is no requirement to believe the teaching of the "trinity" as a prerequisite for salvation. God is ONE.

Originally posted by leunammi
It's really not that difficult to understand, is it?

This is the reason why I call you gullible and shallow. You lack reading comprehension ability... ie the ability to read a simple paragraph and correctly grasp its meaning. Because of this failing you are prone to fall prey to everyone who comes along with a convincing meaning even though after proper reading, the meaning is different.

Here is the whole passage:

The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (John 20:25-29 KJV)

Q What is it that Thomas did not believe?
A : That the disciples had seen Jesus Christ, and that he was risen from the dead.

Therefore when Jesus said ..Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed .. , He was obviously referring to believing that Jesus arose from the dead. Those who believe in the resurrection of Christ are blessed, according to Jesus.

Originally posted by Rajk999
This is the reason why I call you gullible and shallow. You lack reading comprehension ability... ie the ability to read a simple paragraph and correctly grasp its meaning. Because of this failing you are prone to fall prey to everyone who comes along with a convincing meaning even though after proper reading, the meaning is different.

Here is the whole p ...[text shortened]... from the dead. Those who believe in the resurrection of Christ are blessed, according to Jesus.

The real problem here is with you and just about every other poster here with the exception of a few that are acknowledged atheists from what I can see and their disagreement with you. Your MO is to either call fellow posters names or belittle them because they don't see a thing like you do, it is not grounds for fruitful dialog. I am not impressed and I know you could care less. Good luck with that.

Originally posted by leunammi
The real problem here is with you and just about every other poster here with the exception of a few that are acknowledged atheists from what I can see and their disagreement with you. Your MO is to either call fellow posters names or belittle them because they don't see a thing like you do, it is not grounds for fruitful dialog. I am not impressed and I know you could care less. Good luck with that.

The real problem is that you cannot answer the question:

What did Thomas not believe?

And becuase you cannot answer that for yourself by reading the Bible, you are an easy target for those who promote false teachings. You believe false teachings and believe in false teachers.

Jesus Christ is not your teacher. Good luck with that.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The real problem is that you cannot answer the question:

What did Thomas not believe?

And becuase you cannot answer that for yourself by reading the Bible, you are an easy target for those who promote false teachings. You believe false teachings and believe in false teachers.

Jesus Christ is not your teacher. Good luck with that.

Jesus Christ is not your teacher.

No, just not Rajk999.

The point here is what Thomas said to Jesus after Jesus said for Thomas to thrust his hand into his side as he told him to be not "faithless, but believing."

John 20:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

It is apparent to me that at that moment when Thomas put his hand into Jesus' side. the revelation of who Jesus is flooded his being, thus his response.

The interlinear translation that I use translates in part this way....
'the master of-me and the God of-me is-saying to him the Jesus'

Make it say whatever you want, but I believe this passage to say what I have expressed.

Agree to disagree.

Originally posted by leunammi

Jesus Christ is not your teacher.

No, just not Rajk999.

The point here is what Thomas said to Jesus after Jesus said for Thomas to thrust his hand into his side as he told him to be not "faithless, but believing."

[b]John 20:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

...[text shortened]... hatever you want, but I believe this passage to say what I have expressed.

Agree to disagree.[/b]

You hit the nail on the head by your statement of 'making it say whatever you want'. This is what YOU are doing. I am allowing to passage to speak for itself. Adding nothing.

Thomas's disbelief was clearly identified, and it is about disbelieving that Jesus was raised from the dead .. nothing more than that.

English Comprehension .. it should be taught in every school.

Originally posted by divegeester
There is no requirement to believe the teaching of the "trinity" as a prerequisite for salvation. God is ONE.

Bump for sonship

Originally posted by divegeester
Bump for sonship

Why is that significant ?

Are you saying that Christians should only talk about things which are beliefs solely required for salvation ?

Ie. "Since being conversant on the triune nature of God is not pertinent to my being saved, it should never be discussed."

Is that the essence of your argument ?
Christians should ONLY discuss the matters pertinent to receiving the gift of eternal redemption ?

Originally posted by Rajk999

Therefore when Jesus said ..Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed .. , He was obviously referring to believing that Jesus arose from the dead. Those who believe in the resurrection of Christ are blessed, according to Jesus.

Possibly. But John could have then just said that Thomas said " Lord you DID rise from the dead " or something emphasizing only that aspect.

As it stands the more probable intent of the Evangelist is to show what Thomas SAW and believed was that the risen Jesus was the Lord of him (Thomas) and the God of him too.

Originally posted by sonship
Why is that significant ?

Are you saying that Christians should only talk about things which are beliefs solely required for salvation ?

Ie. "Since being conversant on the triune nature of God is not pertinent to my being saved, it should never be discussed."

Is that the essence of your argument ?
Christians should ONLY discuss the matters pertinent to receiving the gift of eternal redemption ?

No the essence of my argument is that you don't know what you believe, or for some strange reason refuse to say what you believe, regarding nthe subject of the OP.

Originally posted by divegeester
No the essence of my argument is that you don't know what you believe, or for some strange reason refuse to say what you believe, regarding nthe subject of the OP.

No the essence of my argument is that you don't know what you believe,

But you do? And thus you always argue with me ?
Is that it?

or for some strange reason refuse to say what you believe, regarding nthe subject of the OP.

LOL. You may criticize me for a number of things. But I think everbody on the Forum would likely agree that I DO state what I believe.

So, I ask you again. Is it that being conversant on the Trinity is not a prerequisite of salvation and therefore should not be discussed among believers ?

Or, is it that it should not be discussed if some unsaved are reading along or listening?

Originally posted by divegeester

Once again for the gullible who might be taken in by divegeester''s desperate attempt to force words into my mouth.

Sonship you play up the trinity in this forum

I don't consider careful writing on the God's nature and His economy to be "playing up" the trinity. To me it is quite serious analysis of an important revelation to aid in experience of Christ.

It is practical so BELIEVE, for example, that the Son (Who you seem to agree is God) INTERCEDES for the believers.

"Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died, and rather was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (Romans 8:34)

I don't think this is the Apostle Paul "playing up" the Trinity.
Nor is it me "playing up" the Trinity.
It is faith building and faith edifying, I think, to know that such a verse exists.

I am glad that God - the Son intercedes for me to God the Father as the revelation of the NT says He is at the right hand of.

And I would find it edifying to let fellow believers know that this same interceding One is simultaneously WITHIN the believers, indwelling them as seen in verses 10.

" But if Christ is in you ... " (v.10)

I am sorry if you regard that as me, OR Romans chapter 8 as "playing up" the three-oneness of God. If you are superior and more mature for not wanting to use the very word "trinity" then love me and bare with me.

Forget about, though, thinking I should blush for speaking of the "Triune God".
Its not going to happen.

and I have a question for you on it which you have been dodging for months.

And I have answered your question multiple times.
I have never given the simple Yes or the simple No which you want me to give you.

That Christ is God incarnate, I would say, is part of my presentation of the Trinity.
How conversant one is about this upon confessing Jesus as Lord, may be a discussion.

But if you don't think Jesus is divine in some sense how can you confess Him as Lord ?
No one can say Jesus is Lord except in the Holy Spirit according to (1 Cor. 12:3)

"Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking in the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed;

and no one can say, Jesus is Lord! except in the Holy Spirit."

Now you may object that that confession is not any part of believing in the Trinity.
But I would say, it probably is at least a part of the teaching of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The night I called on the Lord Jesus I knew nothing much about the word trinity.
But I did know that it was God who came to me when I said "Lord Jesus, take me home."

You have repeated this matter again and again. And I think it boils down to "How much Trinity is Trinity?"

So I still will not give you a BINARY Yes or No.
And you are likely to continue to falsely charge this as evasion or dodging.

If a Christian/person rejects your version of the trinity teaching entirely,

My "version" of the trinity includes that Jesus is Lord.
You see God has made Him both Lord and Christ.
But He is God incarnate too.

does that mean that they are precluded from having the spirit of Christ and if so, does that mean therefore, that they are not saved?

I explained to you how I do get weary of practically every single topic of spiritual discussion from Christians here, so easily gravitates into an argument about WHO is saved and WHO is not.

Don't you ever get tired of dumbing down every discussion into a debate on WHO is saved and WHO is not anyway?

How about this:

"However the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those who are His, and Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness." ( 2 Tim. 2:19)

You don't want to talk about "Trinity"? Fine.
Some of us find it helpful in our departing from unrighteousness.

Its good, if mysterious, to know that Christ is both IN US and at the right hand of God interceding for us. It is good, if impossible to fully explain, How the Mighty God became a child and the Eternal Father came to us in a Son given.

You are more mature and don't need to say "Trinity" ?
Good for you, Love us. Bare with us.

Forget about thinking we should be ashamed to mention "the Triune God".

This is a critical and pivotal doctrinal question regarding what you believe.

No it is not. You're trying to make it pivotal. And to do so you need a unuanced binary Yes or No to a nuanced question. For, as soon as you say the Word was God and the Word was with God, you are talking about something mysterious that no human being can completely explain.

And if some of the brothers speak of "Trinity" or the "Triune God" to frame this very mysterious nature of God, that's fine as long as they stay within the limits of what the word of God says.

"Us" (concerning the Father and the Son) is a plural pronoun. It is a plural pronoun as part of the innerant oracles of God.
Get use to it.

"We" (concerning the Father and the Son) is a plural pronoun. It is a plural pronoun not introduced by a church council. It is part of the Greek New Testament document. Get use to it.