US Air Force Sergeant Barred From Re-Enlisting Unless He Swears to God (article)

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
It's a pretty moronic rule, but I don't get why this air force seargeant makes such a big deal out of it. Swearing to God is meaningless to him anyway.

If you swear an oath to a god there is an implicit understanding that
you have a belief in that god. Therefore to swear an oath to a god
you did not believe in would be dishonest at the very least.

Is that behaviour to encourage in the military? Anywhere?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
If you swear an oath to a god there is an implicit understanding that
you have a belief in that god. Therefore to swear an oath to a god
you did not believe in would be dishonest at the very least.

Is that behaviour to encourage in the military? Anywhere?

it is a formality. why are we discussing this?


do you think those that swear this oath don't break it because god won't help them if they do? or they don't break it because they genuinely don't want to?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
the military is and should be beyond constitution. it is a requirement to function.

Don't be ludicrous.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Don't be ludicrous.

you can have a military with freedom of speech and optional order following then.


if i refuse to code for my employer i get fired. if a soldier refuses to follow orders he gets a court martial and rightfully so.

Originally posted by bill718
Right you are! If we don't change our system to suit one guy, we're villians. Boo Hoo Hoo!

Dang. Bill is getting snappy!

I like it. 😉

Originally posted by wolfgang59
If you swear an oath to a god there is an implicit understanding that
you have a belief in that god. Therefore to swear an oath to a god
you did not believe in would be dishonest at the very least.

Is that behaviour to encourage in the military? Anywhere?

Why is it "dishonest"? I can swear to God, it's quite easy. I swear to God! See? It works, even though I don't believe in fairy tales.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

Oaths of all kinds, but especially those based on God or religion, are anachronistic.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
It's a pretty moronic rule, but I don't get why this air force seargeant makes such a big deal out of it. Swearing to God is meaningless to him anyway.

That was my initial reaction also. If my boss made me swear allegiance to Zeus to keep my job. I'd just do it and then take a coffee break. Who cares?

But then I started thinking about it. Presumably, he's trying to make a political statement that would have the effect of decreasing the role of religion in government and society. Doesn't he have the right to make that political statement? The air force is a public entity, after all.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
you can have a military with freedom of speech and optional order following then.


if i refuse to code for my employer i get fired. if a soldier refuses to follow orders he gets a court martial and rightfully so.

We aren't talking about someone refusing to follow orders, we are talking about someone refusing to swear an oath by a god he doesn't believe in. In the US they have a constitutionally enshrined separation of Church and State. You stated that the military shouldn't be constrained by the constitution, but they are one of the groups the constitution is specifically aimed at. What is more they are the group which has the clearest means to seriously threaten democracy in the US; so they of all people should be scrupulous in observing its dictates.

Originally posted by DeepThought
We aren't talking about someone refusing to follow orders, we are talking about someone refusing to swear an oath by a god he doesn't believe in. In the US they have a constitutionally enshrined separation of Church and State. You stated that the military shouldn't be constrained by the constitution, but they are one of the groups the constitution is s ...[text shortened]... eaten democracy in the US; so they of all people should be scrupulous in observing its dictates.

"We aren't talking about someone refusing to follow orders"
right to free speech, right to own determination, right to freedom, i am pretty sure those are supposed to be constitutional rights. a soldier has restricted access to those. and in certain situations has none. just enlist, go to afghanistan then complain to someone that your constitutional rights are violated for not being allowed to leave whenever you want. i want to see that headline. should be a nice laugh.


"they are one of the groups the constitution is specifically aimed at. "
before i completely dismiss this as nonsense, how about you explain what you mean, maybe i am missing some subtlety


"they are the group which has the clearest means to seriously threaten democracy in the US"
yep, i agree. this however doesn't result from your previous statement.

"so they of all people should be scrupulous in observing its dictates"
yep, i agree. they should observe its dictates to the letter, when it comes to civilians. they should never interfere in governing, always be in service of their people.

they however do not enjoy the same privileges. they get court martialed, not judged by a civilian court, they do not get to leave wherever and whenever they want, they must obey orders. they have a different set of laws by which they are governed, and rightfully so.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

befehlen. befehle is the first person of the verb.


i assume you want to make a nazi reference. a little too early, don't you think?


to address the issue: you may refuse the order if you believe it's wrong but you have to face the consequences. if you are already a soldier that means you get a court martial where someone important has to agree with you that the orders were inappropriate (and present proof). if you are not, you simply get to walk away. either you get fired from a job, or you don't get it. what is left is to go and lobby the persons in charge to change the rules.


in this case, it was such a trivial matter to just go ahead and do. i for one would rather not have such a soldier that when asked to do a simple task, refused based on such nonsense.



while being enlisted, my father was ordered by a superior to go fishing with a shoelace in an empty sink. he did it, because it was an order.

he didn't catch anything, in case someone is wondering. the fish were just not biting that day in the bathroom sink.