Mt 27:46

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]Again, this harkens back to what I said somewhere in this forum recently, that we all assume that our understanding of Scripture we believe is entirely correct. And therefore, we make the leap and claim that "if you disagree with me, you disagree with God!"

How exactly does the text you quoted "harken back" to what you are saying?

This is wh ...[text shortened]... /b]

You think that he doesn't get much more than he gives when it comes to "nasty remark[s]"?[/b]

If you're only going to stick your fingers in your ears and say "la, la, la, la, la, la, la" when I explain myself, then we're not going to get very far down this road.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Okay, now we're going somewhere.

This is more than you've given us in the past in this forum concerning your "deviation" from the Trinity concept. I didn't understand until just now how your belief differed from the Trinity concept.

I can't say that I agree with it, but I do understand it now. I agree now that this is NOT the Trinity concept.

I h ...[text shortened]... fascinating, it's like the Trinity, but not. Something actually new under the sun, if you will.

Bump for divegeester.

See my entire post on pg. 2.

I didn't want you to miss this and never answer me, since the page turned.

Originally posted by Suzianne
If you're only going to stick your fingers in your ears and say "la, la, la, la, la, la, la" when I explain myself, then we're not going to get very far down this road.

Exactly how does my asking you to further explain yourself equate to "stick[ing] [my] fingers in [my] ears and say[ing] 'la, la, la, la, la, la, la'"?

If you are unwilling to answer those questions, then you should ask yourself "why?" instead of tossing out spurious accusations.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Try this on for size.

"The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven." -- 1 Corinthians 15:47, KJV

Why does your Bible leave out the word kyrios from the scripture? Because you cannot bear to believe that Jesus is Lord, "supreme in authority"; nor that Jesus is man AND God.

This makes your Bible nothing but a propaganda tool. You force your Bible to fulfill your already-made-by-man dogma.

IIf Jesus were man and god, his sacrifice for us would not balance the perfect human life that Adam lost, or do you believe that Adam was a part of the trinity also.
That trinity keeps growing by leaps and bounds. Pretty soon there won't be room for our Heavenly Father.

In His wisdom God transfered the life of His first born son into the womb of Mary so he could be born and named Jesus, live a..... perfect human..... life, and sacrifice it to buy back the possibility of human perfection and everlasting life againl
(1 Peter 2:22) He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.

(Isaiah 45:18) For this is what Jehovah says, The Creator of the heavens, the true God, The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it, Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.
God made the Earth to be inhabited by humans.

Sin brought death.
(Romans 5:12) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.
(Romans 6:23) For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.

The dead go to the grave.
(Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
(John 5:28, 29) Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

After the 1000 year reign of Christ mankind will again be perfect and will live here on Earth.
(Psalm 37:11) But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

It's God purpose, not man's.
If we want life we need to learn the truth of the Bible.
Not man's ideas.
(John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
(Hebrews 10:12) But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God,
And as the Bible clearly says, Jesus was a man.

I love it when no one responds.
I hope it means all understand what I posted.

Originally posted by divegeester

The truth is that Jehovah, the father, in his FULLNESS dwelt in the flesh in Jesus. They [sonship's bolding] are in essence the same spiritual being. Jesus is God, Jehovah wrapped in a veil of flesh. The veil of flesh that was torn, like the actual veil of the temple was torn. Jesus is all in all, everything we need of God because he is God. He is God on earth in a veil of flesh.

To me this is so obvious, so simple, so perfect that I cannot understand it when Christians cannot see it.

Why did you use the plural pronoun "They" ? [my bolding above]

Aren't you real big on "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one ..." ?

divegeester, I notice that perhaps you feel to ignore my question as to why you used the plural pronoun "They".

Well then, can you have some empathy concerning the brothers of old who were attacked concerning the mysterious utterances of the Scripture ? Can you somewhat empathize with their task to try to frame the discussion ?

They came up with a word "trinity" for precisely the difficult issue which you appear perhaps to want to evade.

"How come we see more than one ______________ in the revelation of the God of Israel? How do we answer our critics and protect the flock of believers?"

Can you at least see it from the standpoint of these ancient Christian brothers assaulted by "logical" complaints against them speaking along with the Scripture of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ?

If your retort is still "NO! God is not more than one Person" then tell me WHY then you used the plural pronoun "They" ?

Not quite the theological slam dunk you thought it would be, huh ?

Originally posted by sonship
divegeester, I notice that perhaps you feel to ignore my question as to why you used the plural pronoun [b]"They".

Well then, can you have some empathy concerning the brothers of old who were attacked concerning the mysterious utterances of the Scripture ? Can you somewhat empathize with their task to try to frame the discussion ?

They came up wi ...[text shortened]... n "They" ?

Not quite the theological slam dunk you thought it would be, huh ?[/b]

He can't answer or he dare not try.

I've asked the friends here to answer this question for me in the past with no results, so I'll try and reword it to see what happens. And I really request that if you do comment on it that you simply stick to the point and give the clearest answers that you can, "by scriptures of course".
Since the word or term "Trinity" is not in the bible and it was not believed by Jesus as he never once spoke of it or taught it as none of his followers or even the Jews as a whole did not believe it or taught it, why and when did this belief come into existence with the church?
Again please quote any scriptures that discuss this....

Originally posted by roigam
I love it when no one responds.
I hope it means all understand what I posted.

I just don't like reading novels here.

Originally posted by galveston75
I've asked the friends here to answer this question for me in the past with no results, so I'll try and reword it to see what happens. And I really request that if you do comment on it that you simply stick to the point and give the clearest answers that you can, "by scriptures of course".
Since the word or term "Trinity" is not in the bible and it wa ...[text shortened]... f come into existence with the church?
Again please quote any scriptures that discuss this....

Your question (with a presupposition) -

Since the word or term "Trinity" is not in the bible ...

This is a fact. The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible

and it was not believed by Jesus

This is your inserted opinionated presupposition.

It means to me that Jesus did not believe that He was God - false.
it means to me that Jesus did not believe that the Father was God - again false.
And it means to me that Jesus did not believe that the Holy Spirit was God - again false.

So, "Since Jesus did not believe the Trinity" is an assertion which we will now address.

1.) Did Jesus believe that He was God incarnate ?
Yes

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not." (Matt. 23:37)

It was always God Himself who cared for Jerusalem, as a bird flutters over her young (Isaiah 31:5)

" Like flying birds So will Jehovah of hosts protect Jerusalem; He will protect and deliver it; He will pass over and rescue it." (Isa. 31:5)

Compare

"As an eagle rouses his nest, Hovers over his young, Spreads his wings, takes them, and bears them up upon his pinions;

So Jehovah alone led him, And there was no strange god with Him." (Deut. 32:11-12)

When Jesus said "I desired gather your children together the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings" He was indicating that He was Jehovah God Himself.

2.) Did Jesus believe that the Father was God?
Most obviously yes.

"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Him whom You have sent, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3)

3.) Did Jesus believe that the Spirit was God ?
Yes

" God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truthfulness " (John 4:24)

The most essential aspect of the Trinity is that God is Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
Jesus taught this and believed it.

as he never once spoke of it

Untrue.
Above in three passages He speaks of Himself as Jehovah of the Old Testament now become a man - the Son, His Father as the only true God, and the Spirit as what God is.

Show from Scripture where He believed and taught He was Michael the archangel as your organization teaches.

or taught it as none of his followers or even the Jews as a whole did not believe it or taught it, why and when did this belief come into existence with the church? Again please quote any scriptures that discuss this....

The Hebrew Scripture in Isaiah 9:6 spoke of a child being born who would be called "Mighty God". And in the same prophecy it predicted a Son who would be given who would be called "Eternal Father". There you have God the Father and God the Son.


The term Trinity seems to have arisen from the need for the church to defend against heretical attacks against the nature of Christ.

In one short post I will not deal too much with your "question" + an incorrect assertion.
But the term Trinity, I am informed, was first recorded being used by one Theophilus of Antioch (A.D. 115-188) It was seen in Theophilus to Antolycus, Book II, 15 in his commentary on Genesis 1:1-13.

"In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries are types of the Trinity, of God and His Word, and His Wisdom."

My point is not to evaluate this commentary. My only point here is that this is believed to be the earliest occurrence in Christian literature of the use of the word "Trinity".

Originally posted by roigam
I love it when no one responds.
I hope it means all understand what I posted.

Actually, what it means is that you're such a knob that you cannot be swayed by truth.

And so people give up.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Actually, what it means is that you're such a knob that you cannot be swayed by truth.

And so people give up.

Would you not say these comments 'sneer and debase' the person you are addressing? 😉

Originally posted by sonship
Your question (with a presupposition) -

Since the word or term "Trinity" is not in the bible ...

This is a fact. The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible

and it was not believed by Jesus

This is your inserted opinionated presupposition.

It means to me that Jesus did not believe that He was God - false. ...[text shortened]... believed to be the earliest occurrence in Christian literature of the use of the word "Trinity".

Yes it is a fact. It would seem to a normal thinking person and knowing the love that both Jehovah and his son Jesus have for mankind, it would seem that if the trinity were the actual way that we are to understand their being and not in the monotheistic way that all the Jews and those before all the way to Adam them believed and understood their God to be, wow, this would have been the best time in our existence for Jesus to set his followers down and say "hey, this belief or understanding you have is not correct. We are actually a trinity being pretty much like the Babylonians believed in the past". But no that didn't happen and in fact Jesus many times told clearly the differences between his Father and himself.
And do you really think Jesus and Jehovah were all OK with the fact that many thousands were killed for not accepting the trinity once the belief was actually enforced about 400 years after he died?
Not hardly especially since Jesus could have explained this new teaching when he was on earth and saved so much pain and suffering on those who loved him.

Jesus never once said he was God. What it means to you really isn't the issue. The truth of the Bible is the only issue.

And why wouldn't Jesus have the same feelings as his Father on the humans that were being abused and mistreated by others, and wanting to protect them? Nothing in any of these scriptures you are quoting say Jesus is Jehovah..............

The version of the trinity that was adopted was just a version of the one that the Babylonians devised and was passed on thru Egypt and is still being used to confuse many who are tricked by Satan into believing it even down to this day. Satan understands clearly that Jehovah only accepts "true worship".

So care to try again with even just a few clear scriptures that show that this trinity was taught by Jesus?

Galveston,

No need to repeat debates we had about, I think, probably some six to eight years ago.
I answered your question.

Not waiting for JW approval.