Don't be too hard on yourself

Originally posted by FMF
Yet another dodge to a straight forward question.

Did the "salvation" of Paul's companions depend on their "good works" and not only their "faith"?

I differ with you and Jajk999 here. Salvation is not dependent on "good works". It is dependent on repentance and faith. An evidence of faith can be good works. Faith without "works" is dead, yes, but works can be the outworkimg of repentance, returning stollen goods, clearing up a grudge, apologising for something. Could be anything.

Maintaining discipleship costs. Obedience to the teachings of Christ, obedience to the spirit to do all things, including good works, visiting the sick and the elderly. But not obeying does not mean losing salvation, as appealing to a non Christian as that may sound in terms an argument here, that is scriptural error.

Edit: Salvation is an odd and distracting term. To me it's about spiritual rebirth not some legalistic escape from hell, or a free ticket to the happy hunting ground

Originally posted by Rajk999
Thanks, you as well. 🙂.

Cheers!

Yes and if you genuinely are a Christian, just one with a single-minded agenda here, then I sincerely apologise, but it's not how I perceive you at this time.

Having said all I've said and been as adamant as i was earlier today, I have since had a little sneaky feeling I may be wrong about you. Nevertheless, it's still a good conversation and thank you for being so measured in your response.

🙂

Originally posted by divegeester
Faith without works is dead?

Faith without works is dead?

That's what it says doesn't it.

You see the subtle enemy of God seeks to exploit the truth from this side, and then from that side, and then from yet another side.

It should be obvious that James was closing a loophole through which the enemy of the church was seeking to bring in error. I am not sure why this should be difficult to see or appreciate.

If you read Romans you can see that some were spreading rumors about Paul's teaching. They were saying "This man is saying let us to do evil so that good may abound."

If you read Second Thessalonians the devil is trying exploit another angle. Some were saying "Well, if Jesus is coming soon we can just not work, be responsible, but just WAIT."

James is dealing with a certain point which the foolish seek to exploit, That is caring nothing for any moral and ethical evidence that they have had faith in Christ.

Originally posted by sonship
... the subtle enemy of God ... the enemy of the church ... This man is saying let us to do evil so that good may abound ... the devil is trying exploit another angle ... a certain point which the foolish seek to exploit ....

Ruffled vanity, much?

Originally posted by sonship

Faith without works is dead?

That's what it says doesn't it.

You see the subtle enemy of God seeks to exploit the truth from this side, and then from that side, and then from yet another side.

It should be obvious that [b]James was closing a loophole through which the enemy of the church was seeking to bring in error. I am ...[text shortened]... is caring nothing for any moral and ethical evidence that they have had faith in Christ.[/b]

Becoming born again, and following Jesus, works will be done, you cannot follow Christ
and not, because you cannot love someone and not care for their well being.

Originally posted by sonship
You see the subtle enemy of God seeks to exploit the truth from this side, and then from that side, and then from yet another side.

Sometimes, from whatever "side" one looks at the "truth" you propagate, it doesn't add up. And then your furtive and sometimes dysfunctionally proud behaviour just adds to the generally bogus air of what you are saying.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Becoming born again, and following Jesus, works will be done, you cannot follow Christ and not, because you cannot love someone and not care for their well being.

So those good works you spoke of are required as proof or evidence that someone is following Christ? Without that evidence, no "salvation"?

Originally posted by sonship

Faith without works is dead?

That's what it says doesn't it.

You see the subtle enemy of God seeks to exploit the truth from this side, and then from that side, and then from yet another side.

It should be obvious that [b]James was closing a loophole through which the enemy of the church was seeking to bring in error. I am ...[text shortened]... is caring nothing for any moral and ethical evidence that they have had faith in Christ.[/b]

So is that a yes or a no..

Faith without works is dead?

Originally posted by divegeester
Cheers!

Yes and if you genuinely are a Christian, just one with a single-minded agenda here, then I sincerely apologise, but it's not how I perceive you at this time.

Having said all I've said and been as adamant as i was earlier today, I have since had a little sneaky feeling I may be wrong about you. Nevertheless, it's still a good conversation and thank you for being so measured in your response.

🙂

Well I am a Christian but with a single-minded agenda here. But I dont want to dwell on labels, mostly because I dont think that Christ labels out anyone, except the two labels which he identified and which determines the ultimate fate of a person. There are good and righteous ones who will enter the Kingdom of God and there are evil ones who will be destroyed. Christ will judge and I dont know who is who.

While I dont condemn atheists like many Christians do, and I know that Christ will accept many nonChristians, Christians have a privileged position with Christ as they will be kings and priests with Christ and rule over the nations. I rather be a Christian than an atheist.

A Christian [like you said earlier], is supposed to be a transformed person. Not all Christians are spiritually transformed. Some are and some are not and only Christ knows the difference.

Originally posted by divegeester
I differ with you and Jajk999 here. Salvation is not dependent on "good works". It is dependent on repentance and faith. An evidence of faith can be good works. Faith without "works" is dead, yes, but works can be the outworkimg of repentance, returning stollen goods, clearing up a grudge, apologising for something. Could be anything.

Maintaining dis ...[text shortened]... itual rebirth not some legalistic escape from hell, or a free ticket to the happy hunting ground

I would partly agree here. This .. not obeying does not mean losing salvation.., what you said here I sort of disagree.

Not obeying can be of two kinds
- ignoring the good works and doing nothing wrong ie complacency
- ignoring the good works and continuing a life of sin... actively sinful.

The first, Christ will judge that person.
The second one leads to death and destruction, as stated so many times by the Apostles.

Originally posted by divegeester
I don't have a doctrine on as such, I try to include all the gospel and Acts and Letters into my thinking. I do believe in eternal security but I also acknowledge certain scriptues indicating that a person could lose their salvation. These are few and involve very extreme situations, some don't even involve losing salvation but losing physical life; Anan ...[text shortened]... pic to this thread; the dynamic of sincerity of belief vs moral coherence. A good discussion. 🙂

Eternal security of course is a biblical concept and I never doubted it. I doubt who sonship says it applies to. He says it applies to all those who accept Christ with their mouth. The bible teaches that only those who follow Christ and obey are eternally secure in their salvation. Salvation is a gift of course but it can be withdrawn. Jesus threatened to remove the names of certain evil people from the book of life. And this is consistent with lots of other scripture.

The fact that you think about some of the points and passages which I bring up is good. It shows your openmindedness, a quality alien to loads of other Christians here.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Eternal security of course is a biblical concept and I never doubted it. I doubt who sonship says it applies to. He says it applies to all those who accept Christ with their mouth. The bible teaches that only those who follow Christ and obey are eternally secure in their salvation. Salvation is a gift of course but it can be withdrawn. Jesus threatened to r ...[text shortened]... ng up is good. It shows your openmindedness, a quality alien to loads of other Christians here.

A gift cannot be withdrawn. Nevertheless let's not argue over that. I'm not convinced that only those who obey are eternally secure. The problem with your legalistic approach is that we all fall at some point, some fall more than others. So who can be sure, are you sure?

I do respect your admonishments. I do see your point; we should pursue Christ and we hope to not fail. But we do; we all do.

Be specific to speak to promises of God.
Be hard to insist on the promises of God.

To speak the divine facts rather than be influenced by sight.
In that way the seeker and the Christian should be definite, particular, intentioned, single hearted.

Originally posted by Rajk999

Jesus threatened to remove the names of certain evil people from the book of life.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rajk999 is referring to a verse that I know quite well.

" He who overcomes will be clothed thus, in white garments, and I shall by no means erase his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (Rev. 3:5,6)

Some Bible readers feel this has to mean one can be unsaved as to eternal life and eternal redemption. "What else could it possibly mean ?

It means the loss of reward during the millennial kingdom. All of the rewards mentioned to those who overcome are rewards pertaining to that age of the millennial kingdom. And all of the warnings of discipline are related mainly to that same age of the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.

In other words, the matter of being loosing a reward, suffering loss, yet being saved yet so as through fire as told in (First Corinthians 3:12-17) includes in its scope the temporary erasing of a name from the book of life.

All the warning, discipline, punishment, dire consequences, chastisements, corrections, adjustments, hard lessons, educations. etc. for those who are eternally saved, can be subsumed in the negative portion of this passage:

"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.

If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

The lattitude of the warning "will suffer loss" is wide enough to contain different levels or degrees of whatever temporary punishment a saved Christian may need. And that scope includes both being "hurt" by the second death (Rev. 2:11) and having the name erased from the book of life (Rev. 3:5) .

It also includes being cast into "the outer darkness".

In other words the old spiritual song "Everything is Gonna Be Alright, When Jesus Comes" is not necessarily true for every Christian. We may be saved eternally and have that security. But everything may not be alright before the judgment seat of Christ, which is strictly for those who are saved.

Originally posted by divegeester
A gift cannot be withdrawn. Nevertheless let's not argue over that. I'm not convinced that only those who obey are eternally secure. The problem with your legalistic approach is that we all fall at some point, some fall more than others. So who can be sure, are you sure?

I do respect your admonishments. I do see your point; we should pursue Christ and we hope to not fail. But we do; we all do.

Well we wont argue over that. Just that people should notice that Jesus threatened to remove certain names from the Book of Life. Their names were written [ie the gift was given],, and could be removed [gift withdrawn]. But I keep saying it is not just for petty sins. There are grave sins, unforgivable sins. We dont know these things. People should not be complacent.