Sandbagging and Collusion

Originally posted by shortcircuit
No, he didn't address it. He asserted it came about because of it.
READ what was said.
The problem was not addressed, he acknowledged it existed.
Big difference dog

It was too addressed. Again, you refuse to read [or comprehend] what he wrote.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
On your first point...sure it would be for difficult....but we didn't get these separate ratings in the "solution", did we??

You people kill me with your twisted panties over deleting unnecessary game.
If would want them to be necessary, award extra points for them.
Case closed.

No, we didn't get separate individual ratings. But we should. This needs to happen. I intend to keep pushing for it.

I like how, for collusion, you trot out a bunch of unwritten rules, but for throwing games, you say "there are no rules written for either FIDE or USCF!" Double standard much?

Fischer once rightly complained that the Russians were giving one another easy draws in a Candidates tournament, and saving all their energy for games against him. And guess what? Even though the Russians broke no rules, FIDE still changed the format [to a knockout] to prevent them from doing this later on. [much like the Clan system here is getting reformed to stop game-throwing, I hope]

A simple breakdown of the issues as I see it:-
1.Metallica consistently finish top of the net points clan list by throwing games in a challenge when the result has already been decided.
2.Easy riders adopt a policy of colluding with dummy clans to displace Melltalia from the top of the net points clan list .
Do you see the problem here which is causing all the problems for Russ and the site in general?
In case you cant it's the b******[ net points clann list.
Ignore the damn thing!!
Clan Leaders - check your challenges for evidence of sandbagging and reject accordingly.I was a leader for 5 years and it's not difficult.
Play the games for relaxation and fun
By all means be competetive but above all
Take no noitice of the innacurately calculated net points b***** clan list
It's trivial.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Sandbagging would be much more difficult with separate individual ratings for clan play vs. tourneys and other arenas.

Also, to prevent throwing games in already-decided challenges, the [b]margin of victory must figure in how many points get awarded [or removed].[/b]

We are already in general agreement on a separate rating for clan games.

As to resigning games In decided challenges, I have several ideas:

1 - shrink the rating for clan games by using a much lower K value in the rating formula. This will reduce the rating variance.

2 - change the net points scoring to be the sum of all rating changes for every clan game. For example if you win a clan game against your opponent and your rating goes up 6 points, your clan is awarded 6 points.
Every game will contribute to the clan score. So resigning a game will cost the clan.

More thoughts on this to follow.

But this should give you some idea that this issue can be solved without throwing the entire scoring system into the trash.

Originally posted by venda
A simple breakdown of the issues as I see it:-
1.Metallica consistently finish top of the [b]net points clan list by throwing games in a challenge when the result has already been decided.
2.Easy riders adopt a policy of colluding with dummy clans to displace Melltalia from the top of the net points clan list .
Do you see the problem here which ...[text shortened]... b] Take no noitice of the innacurately calculated net points b***** clan list[/b]
It's trivial.[/b]

I watched the darts last week best of 12 games when a player say goes 7 against 2 they don't bother playing the last 3 games same in snooker
The same approach is used by the clans when it's won it's won only way to stop players giving up is to make it mean something
Now we have collusion against rules
Come on those who find collusion acceptable is a joke
Points must be removed suspensions handed out its happened before must be more severe this time now of the old symptom bull cheats need punished

Play to win none of this good chess rubbish it's clan v clan it's war don't like it play in tournaments

I am not directing this at you venda

I vote roll back

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
No, we didn't get separate individual ratings. But we should. This needs to happen. I intend to keep pushing for it.

I like how, for collusion, you trot out a bunch of unwritten rules, but for throwing games, you say "there are no rules written for either FIDE or USCF!" Double standard much?

Fischer once rightly complained that the Russians were ...[text shortened]... his later on. [much like the Clan system here is getting reformed to stop game-throwing, I hope]

Site administration has already shut down 2 clans for collusion.
Precedent has been set.

As to resigning games in decided challenges, there is nothing wrong with that.
The objective is to win the challenge !!
Period !!

I ask you this.
Would you punish a player who has won a tournament for resigning his remaining games ??
He entered the tournament to win the tournament.
Yes it would be nice to finish the games.
But he has accomplished his goal.
And on the same topic, no one talks about people like McTayto who enter the same tournaments and then resign their games en masse.
After they have taken the spot from someone else. Another subscriber.

We could have very easily recommended 1 of 2 solutions under the current scoring system that would have settled this grievance once and for all.

1 - award the challenge points to the clan as soon as the challenge is decided instead of when all the games are completed.

Or ......

2 - set all clan games completed after challenge decided to unrated games. That would not change the player rating.

These are easy fixes.

But what happened instead ???

The whole scoring system has been turned upside down because someone was jumping up and down like a parrot screaming ..

ELO ELO !!!!
SANDBAGGING SANDBAGGING !!!!

There were people in this process that had their own motives for changing the clan feature.

You do see that. Don't you ?

Originally posted by venda
A simple breakdown of the issues as I see it:-
1.Metallica consistently finish top of the [b]net points clan list by throwing games in a challenge when the result has already been decided.
2.Easy riders adopt a policy of colluding with dummy clans to displace Melltalia from the top of the net points clan list .
Do you see the problem here which ...[text shortened]... b] Take no noitice of the innacurately calculated net points b***** clan list[/b]
It's trivial.[/b]

Your point #1 doesn't even begin to hold water.

Did you read what you just typed ????

If the challenges were already decided, then wasn't Metallica going to win or lose the points anyways ??

Resigning games doesn't create Metallica's result on the clan table.
If the challenges are already won or lost.

Your comment is a head scratcher.

That being said, your last comment is accurate.

I have always said that one clan leader should not be held responsible for another's ineptitude.

Originally posted by mghrn55
Your point #1 doesn't even begin to hold water.

Did you read what you just typed ????

If the challenges were already decided, then wasn't Metallica going to win or lose the points anyways ??

Resigning games doesn't create Metallica's result on the clan table.
If the challenges are already won or lost.

Your comment is a head scratcher.

That ...[text shortened]... I have always said that one clan leader should not be held responsible for another's ineptitude.

My first point is relevant in some circumstances.
The end of the year for example where Fred readily admits that when they are uncatchable on the net points list in a year resigning all the remaining lost challenges gives them a "head start" in the following year by denying other clans the points when the challenge is completed.
It also affects the individual ratings of players which could decieve other leaders when mounting challenges.
Question - If there is no advantages to be gained by throwing games , why does Metallica do it?

Originally posted by mghrn55
Your point #1 doesn't even begin to hold water.

Did you read what you just typed ????

If the challenges were already decided, then wasn't Metallica going to win or lose the points anyways ??

Resigning games doesn't create Metallica's result on the clan table.
If the challenges are already won or lost.

Your comment is a head scratcher.

That ...[text shortened]... I have always said that one clan leader should not be held responsible for another's ineptitude.

My goodness you talk so much drivel. You and your leader are in denial, you only see what you want to see.

Originally posted by venda
My first point is relevant in some circumstances.
The end of the year for example where Fred readily admits that when they are uncatchable on the net points list in a year resigning all the remaining lost challenges gives them a "head start" in the following year by denying other clans the points when the challenge is completed.
It also affects the individu ...[text shortened]...
Question - If there is no advantages to be gained by throwing games , why does Metallica do it?

This is the clan dumping accusations that have been flying around for ages.
Obviously the accusers know what clan dumping is. They coined the phrase. 😲

To hear them talk, only one clan does it.
These clowns have come up with some doozers !! (remember clan rotation ?)
Then they try to throw it at Metallica.

Back to challenge dumping.
If Metallica is the only clan doing it, then back it up.
If other clans are doing it, then the playing field is level !!

If you want to talk about challenge dumping, then let's talk about the whole thing.
Holding on to won challenges for the new year is part of the same clan technique.
Meaning that closing out lost challenges before Dec 31st and hanging on to won challenges to after Jan 1st amount to the same "head start" the accusers are chirping about.

If you want to talk about that, you can find a better clan to talk about than Metallica.

You can talk about Easy Riders setting up a bunch of challenges with 3 clans in Oct & Nov 2015 and having more than 300 net points before Jan 2016 was halfway through.

It's nice to dream up these infractions and try to pin them on one clan.

But someone can always find a better clan to talk about.

Btw .... answer to your question.
There is nothing to gain. The challenge is already decided.
The goal is to close out the challenge and collect the clan points.
And help the clan leader better manage the game load for each clan member.

Some people just want to see sandbagging.
I won't fix the tint on their glasses for them.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
My goodness you talk so much drivel. You and your leader are in denial, you only see what you want to see.

Lots of logic in my post.

You start with suspicion and accusations and try to attach it to one clan you are obsessed with.

You offer nothing constructive as usual.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
No, we didn't get separate individual ratings. But we should. This needs to happen. I intend to keep pushing for it.

I like how, for collusion, you trot out a bunch of unwritten rules, but for throwing games, you say "there are no rules written for either FIDE or USCF!" Double standard much?

Fischer once rightly complained that the Russians were ...[text shortened]... his later on. [much like the Clan system here is getting reformed to stop game-throwing, I hope]

So? Apples and oranges dude.

Clan chess is NOT the same as individual chess matches. Not in any sense of the word.
You sound like a Euro claiming their football rules are not the same as American football.
They argue one against the other, but they are two entirely different games.
Maybe you should think about this a bit more, because you are obvious;y confused.

Collusion, however, is not condoned in ANY sport or game. Therefore, it is easy to say they are cheats.

Originally posted by venda
A simple breakdown of the issues as I see it:-
1.Metallica consistently finish top of the [b]net points clan list by throwing games in a challenge when the result has already been decided.
2.Easy riders adopt a policy of colluding with dummy clans to displace Melltalia from the top of the net points clan list .
Do you see the problem here which ...[text shortened]... b] Take no noitice of the innacurately calculated net points b***** clan list[/b]
It's trivial.[/b]

Dave, it is not net points as the problem.
Until about 5 years ago, the total points was the determiner.

Also, I am a bit offended that you make any disparaging remarks against Metallica
regarding our play. If you remember, we had already won, or lost, the challenge at hand
so the points were already in our pocket or lost to us. Explain how the other challenges affected the outcome at all.
They do not!! Which is why I am sick of the perpetual bitching about it.
We NEVER tossed challenges like the 3 sisters did to the Easy Riders.
The facts are, we played our challenges and won more of them than we lost.
We achieved the points through victories, not through resigned games.

Also, if there is no prize to play for, why play?
The magnitude of challenges we undertake isn't for a Sunday stroll through the park.
The real truth that everyone chokes on is we consistently played well as a clan.
That is why we have been consistently at or near the top of the boards. Period!!

Originally posted by venda
My first point is relevant in some circumstances.
The end of the year for example where Fred readily admits that when they are uncatchable on the net points list in a year resigning all the remaining lost challenges gives them a "head start" in the following year by denying other clans the points when the challenge is completed.
It also affects the individu ...[text shortened]...
Question - If there is no advantages to be gained by throwing games , why does Metallica do it?

No Dave, what I readily admitted was that once the outcome for the challenges were
decided, we didn't see the need to play out the string.

A 5.5-4.5 win yielded the same points as a 10-0 did.
That is a strategy that I employed as clan leader.
If everyone has their panties in a knot over the timing of wins and losses,
then maybe they should make another rule about that.
But you better check the other clans who were doing it as well.
It is flattering when they see the strategy and use it themselves.

But, one thing is perfectly clear....Metallica never cheated for a single win.
Easy Riders cannot claim that.

Oh, and Dave, there is but one advantage to eliminating unnecessary games.
It frees resources. It allows the players to take on more meaningful games.
Why waste your time on games that don't matter??
Put your time to effective use on games that can improve the scores.

Really surprised that none of the whiners have ever thought about that.
But, it isn't my job to educate them, just to beat them to the title.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
No Dave, what I readily admitted was that once the outcome for the challenges were
decided, we didn't see the need to play out the string.

A 5.5-4.5 win yielded the same points as a 10-0 did.
That is a strategy that I employed as clan leader.
If everyone has their panties in a knot over the timing of wins and losses,
then maybe they should make ...[text shortened]... ever thought about that.
But, it isn't my job to educate them, just to beat them to the title.

Exactly !!

I find it amusing that that some waste all their breath wanting to talk about "tossing" games that don't affect the outcome of a challenge.

But won't talk about tossing games that DO affect the outcome of a challenge.

What's wrong with this picture ?? 😲