Originally posted by chaney3
If you agree that the universe has NOT always existed, then logically, it was caused into existence. You can dispute the 'cause', or a 'causer', but something did come from nothing.
By the way, atheists participate in the spirituality forum....so theists participate here, especially if one feels that God and science co-exist.
Atheists should not hold this forum hostage because of their non-belief.
"If you agree that the universe has NOT always existed, then logically, it was caused into existence. You can dispute the 'cause', or a 'causer', but something did come from nothing."
If you agree that something always comes from something, then where do the designer come from.
Don't give me 'that's an exception' because it makes it illogical and has nothing to do with science, in wich forum you happen to be.
"Atheists should not hold this forum hostage because of their non-belief."
By being here wanting to discuss religion in an non-scientific way, you don't mind that non-spiritual people is frequenting in the spiritual forum, do you?
As long as we are discussing scientific matters in the Science Forum and wou are discussing spiritual matters in the Spiritual Forum anyone should be welcomed wherever they support the title of the Forum. Why do you think this is a problem? Do you think it is appropriate to discuss spiritual matters in the Chess Forum? No, I didn't think so either. Try and you will see the responce.
"By the way, atheists participate in the spirituality forum....so theists participate here, especially if one feels that God and science co-exist."
No, gods and science cannot coexist. Your god is not a part of science. Christians says so. He is above the science, they say. If you say your god is science - then prove his existence scientifically and the thing is settled. Until then...
I say that there is a border between science and religion. They don't meet. Religion cannot be treated with scientific methods.
Let's go on-topic again.
You say that you can see a designer in a chaotic solar system. Because there are solar eclipses on the face of the Earth? My dear friend, every planet having moons have solar eclilpses, even on the lifeless Moon the sun is eclipsed now and then. Your arguments are merely proof of an absent designer.
On the other hand - if there were no eclipses at all - that would be a strong proof of a designer setting the orbital elements very exact top avoid eclipses.
Or you can just say that you are wrong.
Please stay on topic. It's your thread after all.