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Fridges +The Marshall

Subscribergreenpawn34
Only Chess 05 Jul '12 13:27
  1. Subscribergreenpawn34
    e4
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    05 Jul '12 13:27
    Hi

    A bit of monster blog this one.
    I analysed one game into dust and I know I still don't have it all.

    GhostofMarmorstein - Fnugbatter RHP 2010 & OTB. Lange - Gliksman 1969
    Same order of moves, same position with Black to play.


    Why in both games did Black not take the Bishop? 1...exd4.

    One small two move note from Lundin in the 1969 Informator. [22…exd4 23 Rf5!!]
    (I'm thinking he is wrong unless he means this draws...maybe, maybe not.)
    We need a super-duper box to run over this to get a 100% picture of what is going on.

    I'm sure a box was not used in the game. It does appear Black can take
    the Bishop (instead Black walked into a mate in 2).

    Ernie and a very reluctant Duck (The Duck needed a wee bit of encouragement)
    look at your endings.

    And Fridges....send pictures of your fridges.

    Blog 4
  2. c
    Standard memberchessicle
    The Chessicle
    Scotland?
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    05 Jul '12 22:01
    Doesn't 28 Bg4 avoid the perpetual in the line with 23 ... Qb6 24 Rb5?
  3. Subscribergreenpawn34
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    06 Jul '12 00:32
    Hi Chessicle.

    You need to post a diagram to show which gamlet we are talking about.
    (it will avoid confusion for others and us.)

    Also show some analysis.

    I've not ran this through a box I found the Rb5 idea only because
    Lundin dropped !! on it. Without that I'm pretty sure I would not have
    looked for it.

    It originally started out as a one gamer to show the dangers of following
    a game without looking at all the why's if's and buts.
    I was then going to show the cute (forced) win with Rf5.

    I ended up analysing myself into a corner trying to dig out Lundin's !!.
    which I now think is dodgy. (though I'm open to ideas, I am not claiming
    my analysis is right, it's looks OK, but there may be a corking idea which
    has passed me by. It happens.)

    and here.


    I later saw 2...d6 and then Qb6 is a check may altler things.
    It rules the Rb5 idea for a start.
    I looked then at h4 but by then I was feeling this is getting all deep and unbloggy
    and the longer I go on the more chance of me missing a shot so posted it
    just to get it off my board.

    I nearly never posted it, then I thought the good players might like something
    to get their teeth into rather than see blunders every week.
    (also I was not keen in wasting the time I put into it.) 🙂

    Are you going to send me a picture of your fridge?
  4. c
    Standard memberchessicle
    The Chessicle
    Scotland?
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    09 Jul '12 15:231 edit
    My fridge is boring - we've just moved house, and the fridge is new and, as yet, unadorned. I do have fridge chessboard somewhere, though - I wonder where it is?

    I don't post often enough to be able to put together the fens and play boards very quickly, but I thought it was an obvious idea, and thought I'd best get it out there. Here is the position I was thinking about:

    Invert BoardPGNHeadersComments


    So White wins after 1. ... Qb6, because Black is forced to play on the light squares with the Queen, and White can make a fortress.

    I think your other suggestion of pushing the d-pawn and planning an ambush from b6 is an improvement. It didn't seem too hard to refute, though, until I found myself in (and completely failed to spot - EPIC FAIL) a line you'd put on the Blog:

    Invert BoardPGNHeadersComments


    Anyhow, moving on....

    Can the threat be renewed, by arranging a bolt-hole for the White King?

    Invert BoardPGNHeadersComments


    Maybe the bolt hole needs to be bigger:

    Invert BoardPGNHeadersComments


    So it seems that Lundin was correct with his 23. Rf5!! Perhaps he saw all this? Just as likely, there is a hole in my analysis?
  5. t
    Standard membertomtom232
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    09 Jul '12 22:364 edits
    Originally posted by chessicle
    My fridge is boring - we've just moved house, and the fridge is new and, as yet, unadorned. I do have fridge chessboard somewhere, though - I wonder where it is?

    I don't post often enough to be able to put together the fens and play boards very quickly, but I thought it was an obvious idea, and thought I'd best get it out there. Here is the position I f5!! Perhaps he saw all this? Just as likely, there is a hole in my analysis?
    Invert BoardPGNHeaders
  6. Subscribergreenpawn34
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    10 Jul '12 00:32
    Hi Guys.

    In the first game posted by Chessicle, I should have mentioned the g5+ line
    (I thought I had, I've just checked, I have not)

    Invert BoardPGNHeadersComments
  7. t
    Standard membertomtom232
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    10 Jul '12 00:379 edits
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Hi Guys.

    In the first game posted by Chessicle, I should have mentioned the g5+ line
    (I thought I had, I've just checked, I have not)

    [pgn]
    [FEN "r4rk1/p1q2p1p/2ppnPpQ/5R2/3pP1B1/8/P5PP/6K1 b - - 0 1"]

    1... Qb6 2. Rb5 Qxb5 3. Bxe6 Qb1+ 4. Kf2 Qc2+ 5. Kg3 Qd3+ 6. Kh4 Qxe4+ 7. Bg4 {There is another check for Black here.} 7... g5+ {I should have ...[text shortened]... . h6 {With Qg5+ to follow wins. It does look like White has to settle for a perpetual.}[/pgn]
    On the blog I asked about a line but I'm not sure if you get an alert or if you have to just check every so often so I'll repeat myself here and add a diagram even.

    what about this....

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  8. Subscribergreenpawn34
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    10 Jul '12 01:131 edit
    Hi Tom Tom

    This line with Kf2 pulling the Rook back I have not look at all.
    I'm so intent on making and finding the RF5 ideas with Rb5 and Rh5.
    It looks like Kf2 does give some drawing chances.

    But I'm slightly confused as you posted a different line in the previous thread.
    2.Kf2 is looking interesting But....

    Invert BoardPGNHeadersComments
  9. Subscribergreenpawn34
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    10 Jul '12 01:251 edit
    Hi Tom Tom

    I'm at the Scottish Champs tomorrow (well later on today) we can do all this
    OTB if you are there. I'd better shoot off and get some sleep, I've an early
    start tomorrow...today. Tuesday 10th July.
  10. t
    Standard membertomtom232
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    10 Jul '12 01:561 edit
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Hi Tom Tom

    This line with Kf2 pulling the Rook back I have not look at all.
    I'm so intent on making and finding the RF5 ideas with Rb5 and Rh5.
    It looks like Kf2 does give some drawing chances.

    But I'm slightly confused as you posted a different line in the previous thread.
    2.Kf2 is looking interesting But....

    [pgn]
    [FEN "r4rk1/p1q2p1p/2ppn ed as me.}4. Kh4 Qe1+ 5. g3 Qxe4 {The Bishop is pinned and g5+ and Qg6 is in the air.}[/pgn]
    Hi GP

    Yes, I am confused. I kept trying to get a cleaner line to no avail... I should use a real board and pieces instead of editing a diagram over and over to mess around with the bits.
  11. Subscribergreenpawn34
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    10 Jul '12 07:58
    I'm up and ready for Glasgow, always a nice day out.

    I did those last bits of analysis on winboard, it's not the same.
    We can have loads of fun looking at with a board and pieces in the analysis room.
    (it is where I'll be spending a lot my time today anyway.)

    I don't know about the Kf2 and Rf3 line. Never even looked at it.
    I'm thinking Lundin never did either.

    Although all these years later we are pulling it apart (I could say this reminds me
    of the good old days when we were alwasy looking for 'busts' in the notes, but I
    have never left the old days.).

    OTB that Rf5 is a good practical move, I got there by trial and error.
    You don't have trial and error chances OTB. OTB it's hit or bust.
  12. lm
    Standard memberluke myster
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    10 Jul '12 09:541 edit
    Im confused about why white can't just play Rf3 instead of Rf5...
  13. Standard memberProper Knob
    Cornovii
    North of the Tamar
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    10 Jul '12 12:03
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    [pgn]
    [FEN "r4rk1/p1q2p1p/2ppnPpQ/5R2/3pP1B1/8/P5PP/6K1 b kq - 0 1"]
    1. ... d3 2. h4 d2[/pgn]
    Here's what Houdini gives after Rf5.

    Invert BoardPGNHeaders
  14. Subscribergreenpawn34
    e4
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    10 Jul '12 17:011 edit
    I'm back.

    The bookstall was not there. 🙁

    I told the geezer who is doing the Scottish Champs website to say the
    bookstall will only be there this Saturday. 🙁 When I'm working 🙁

    I ambled around met some good friends, spoke about games and things.
    Stood for a while watching Clem Sreeves - GM Vitaly Teterev.
    Clem took ages (well to me anyway) playing 9.f4. (what else can he play?)
    Teterev went on two walk abouts waiting for him to play it.
    Just checked on here to see what happened:

    http://www.chessscotland.com/livegames/ScotChamps2012/r4a/tfd.htm

    Clem got a draw that is a brilliant result for him. (keep your eye on him.)

    Analysed a wee bit of that game (Tom Tom's Rf3 line).
    Took some pics for the Blog. Came home and now tired and fed up.

    Hi Proper Knob.

    That Houdini line is a load of unhuman crap. And people use these things to
    help them find tactics in their games. Good Grief.
    No wonder they are sitting targets (I nearly said Ducks) for anybody with
    grade III tactics.

    Hands up.
    Who is learning more about chess from that game with my (and the
    other lads) analysis or from Hou 'bloody' dini.

    Not your fault mate, and nothing at all against you. Thanks for posting.

    (Houdini was an escape artist. Take that Houdini CD, tie it to a brick and throw
    it in the lake. Then we will see how good it is.) 😉
  15. p
    Standard memberpaulbuchmanfromfics
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    10 Jul '12 18:032 edits
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    I'm back.

    The bookstall was not there. 🙁

    I told the geezer who is doing the Scottish Champs website to say the
    bookstall will only be there this Saturday. 🙁 When I'm working 🙁

    I ambled around met some good friends, spoke about games and things.
    Stood for a while watching Clem Sreeves - GM Vitaly Teterev.
    Clem took ages (well to me anyway) dini CD, tie it to a brick and throw
    it in the lake. Then we will see how good it is.) 😉
    Invert BoardPGNHeaders




    I was thinking the same thing about this analysis. It really doesn't help in the least bit (no offense to the poster).
    Here's what I mean:

    2.h4 is ok to give the king air, I guess

    3.Rf1 is bad. Why withdraw the rook, whose sole role is to get in Rh5 and mate? It's just totally illogical and reduces whites "chances".

    4.Rd1 Pawn hunting after sacking a rook makes no sense whatsover. This slight bit of material has no chance of solving anything after sacking a rook. White's only chance (slim, I know) is getting at the black king.

    5.e5 OK I guess. 5. ... Qxe5 Bxe6 looks like a hopeful try to mate.

    6.Bxe6 The attack is dead now, and white is simplifying. Wrong! You need pieces to attack, not a simplified postion where an extra rook will be more useful.

    7.Qe3 One of the worst moves possible. NEVER trade queens when trying to attack or down material. NEVER NEVER NEVER trade when significantly down in material. All it does is reduce your chances.

    White's computer moves are totally illogical and produce no practical chances whatsover. The computer does not know about human error and practical chances based around this. It just knows hard calculation of what it thinks are the best moves. Therefore, on some levels, it can be totally useless. I think it tends to steer a lot of players in the wrong direction, but as greenpawns says it can also be useful.

    Try to just use it to spot tactics or check over games where you went wrong. Other than that, try to rely on it's analysis to a minimum.
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